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Royal Engineers are op

17 May 2016, 02:30 AM
#21
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 May 2016, 01:34 AMwouren
[Generalization Incoming]


Why do good balance suggestions have such little support and the bad balance suggestions get a wall of text in their OP?

Obviously the good ones make it impossible for anyone to say anything more than "Yes, definitely" so no one does compared to the bad ones where it assumes everyone to pick apart word by word :snfCHVGame:
17 May 2016, 05:52 AM
#22
avatar of PanzerGeneralForever

Posts: 1072

jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2016, 22:13 PMKatitof
T1 units are stronger then T0 units.

More news at 11.


Using your logic grens should be best baseline infantry. Fail.
17 May 2016, 06:20 AM
#23
avatar of Doomlord52

Posts: 960

Maybe they are a little bit strong. Their vet3 50% cheaper reinforce is the biggest problem IMO


-Reinforcement cost reduction at vet3 IS OP.


Yes.

RE's are completely fine (IMO) until they get that vet 3 reduced cost bonus. Then they become insane (good luck doubling your DPS).
17 May 2016, 06:34 AM
#24
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17

The Flamethrower thing is a bug.

The issue is deeper, and has to do with Brit Infantry as a whole. I'll just quote my answer from a similar-named thread 2 months ago:

Broken? Not really. (has REs spam become a thing, now, and I missed the memo?)

Overperforming for their cost? Definitely. However we need to make the following distinction:
- Their call-in cost is cheap for a 4-man squad, and dirt-cheap for a 5-man squad
- Their reinforcement cost is OK-ish (compare to other line infantry for instance)
- They cost the same-or-more popcap as other line infantry

However, before we go ahead and balance the only non-underperforming infantry of the Brits let's have a look at the bigger picture.

Spamming Tommies doesn't work; Tommies are a bit meh for their cost, and you will bleed heavily.

Spamming Sappers doesn't work either; sure, on 1v1 with other infantry, they are cost efficient. However, they have a very low range and can be cattle-prodded with MGs very easily.

You are meant to use both of them at the same time so that each unit's advantages covers the other unit's disadvantages.

Tommies



Tommies cost 280MP, and are probably priced with their 5-man version in mind.

For a 4-man squad, Tommies are extremely overpriced at 280MP. Part of that call-in premium goes towards:
- Tommies' received accuracy at Vet0 (-20%)
- Is probably meant to be recuperated by more cost-efficient units (Sappers).

Tommies, however, suffer from the following:
- Cover penalty
- Severe moving accuracy penalty
- Their Vet3 penalty bug (weapon pinatas)
- They scale well, but not as well as other infantry in the game (if you compare the bonuses)
- Part of the reason behind this scalability lag is that they already get some of the benefits at Vet0
- Unless you plan on blobbing your entire army, the faction design forces UKF to have at least 2 Tommies so that they get access to healing

I will leave it up to you to decide whether 280MP is a fair price for a 5-man Tommy squad.

Sappers



Sappers are very generously priced for a 4-man unit. Of course, this cost becomes insanely low considering that Sappers can become 5-man squads.

Their Vet0 reinforcement cost is not that bad. They cost 7/8 popcap and are meant to act as line infantry to cover up for Tommies' weaknesses.

The combat bonuses they get are at:
- Vet0 (0.8 reinforcement cost)
- Vet1 (Stens fire faster when in cover -- currently it's bugged and affects ALL weapons)
- Vet3 (Additional received accuracy bonus, Halved reinforcement cost)

Now:
1. Sappers cost equal/more popcap than other line infantry.
2. The Vet3 Reinforcement cost bonus is outright OP and needs to be thrown out immediately IMO (or moved to Conscripts)
3. The call-in cost could be adjusted to be fair. However, it would also be fair to adjust the Tommies' callin cost at the same time.
4. I don't know if one of the received accuracy bonuses needs to be reduced.
5. Alternatively, their Vet0 received accuracy bonus could be tied to a specific Veterancy tier.
6. However, this unit receives no offensive vet bonuses at all (apart from the recent bug).

Overall, as a line-infantry, Sappers get very tanky-kind-of veterancy. That, coupled with the Heavy Engineer upgrade makes them extremely difficult to eradicate. That is, until you figure out that you should be using grenades against them.

(Excluding the recent bug), none of the bonuses affects their offensive capability with equipped weapons. This means that you need Tommies to dish out the damage, and it probably makes sense to have Sappers to soak up the damage.

That's right. No matter how much munitions you sink into Sappers, Tommies will still be able to deal more damage with equal (or less) amount of munitions invested.

Provided that this is balanced, I think that's good design (as opposed to spamming Rifle-Rifle-Rifle or Volks-Volks-Volks)

Weapon teams



If we nerf Sappers, UKF will lack a low-reinforcement utility-only unit to reman weapon teams.

Currently, we have:
- USF has RE for 25MP-a-pop (a bit overnerfed) -- no special utility
- Soviets have Conscripts for 20-a-pop -- no special utility
- OKW has Volks for 25-a-pop -- no special utility
- OST has Pioneers (25-a-pop) or Osttruppen (20-a-pop) -- Pioneers have a passive sight bonus. Osttruppen reinforce very very very fast
- UKF has Sappers for 26-a-pop -- Sappers have a 0.8 received accuracy

(Btw, Vickers is also overpriced at 280MP. Shouldn't we also fix that too?)

Conclusions



1. The Sappers Vet3 reinforcement cost bonus (13MP) is ridiculously OP and needs to go.
2. Don't fix Sappers further unless you also plan on fixing Tommies too.
3. Otherwise, don't come here to complain when UKF starts spamming nothing but snipers and emplacements as their line infantry.


I was actually wrong on two things:
- Royal Eng IS a thing (because Tommies suck if you don't do emplacements/mattress). If you think that Tommies don't suck, please link a replay to this thread: https://www.coh2.org/topic/52856/how-do-you-use-tommies-request-for-replays
- Flamethrower (even a normal one) on Royal Eng might be a bit too much given that they can come out 5-man, and with their initial received accuracy. Better fix that one doctrine though, than break the faction for everything else (else it's snipers/emplacement spam).
17 May 2016, 06:37 AM
#25
avatar of Svanh

Posts: 181

Here's a thread from a few months ago that covers some of the issues with Sappers (and Tommies). :)
17 May 2016, 06:48 AM
#26
avatar of Glokta

Posts: 61

Would like to see RE vet 3 being swapped from -50% reinforcement (crazy) to takes no extra damage while repairing like the other engies. Tripple lmg heavy engies are abit cheesy. Maybe the extra lmg should go for a cost increase.
17 May 2016, 06:51 AM
#27
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post16 May 2016, 22:51 PMMyself

That is not very accurate...currently in live Grenadiers(T1) loses to riflemen(T0) and to I.S.(T0)
Penals (T1) lose to SP(T0). Tier is one factor, cost is another.

More expensive unit of role A > cheaper unit of role A.

Not sure if arguing for the sake of act of arguing or just that stupid :snfBarton:
17 May 2016, 07:13 AM
#28
avatar of Myself

Posts: 677

jump backJump back to quoted post17 May 2016, 06:51 AMKatitof

T1 units are stronger then T0 units.

jump backJump back to quoted post17 May 2016, 06:51 AMKatitof

More expensive unit of role A > cheaper unit of role A.
Not sure if arguing for the sake of act of arguing or just that stupid :snfBarton:


Your first post contradicts your second post. No idea if you are posting for the "sake of the act" (thus you have reached 8.9k posts) or you are "just that stupid" and cannot actually write what you mean.

In addition post patch Penal will be stronger than P.G. which are both later tier and cost more...

So once again your new "rule", as pointed out, is not very accurate.
As I pointed out previously, Tier and cost are 2 major factors (not only 1 of them is the deciding factor as you have posted in 2 different posts...) but there are also other factors...

Ro.E. is currently the most cost efficient engineer type unit. This might change if the patch goes as is...and they might become the second most efficient.
17 May 2016, 08:42 AM
#29
avatar of mortiferum

Posts: 571

Sappers need a fix, but it is nothing about firepower.

Their vet 3 makes them far too efficient.
17 May 2016, 08:53 AM
#30
avatar of jackill2611

Posts: 246

RE are good support infantry, only inferior to SturmPioneers. I agree that vet3 bonus os too much, maybe it should be 0.75 bonus fore reinforce, not 0.5.
17 May 2016, 09:15 AM
#31
avatar of NEVEC

Posts: 708 | Subs: 1

Maybe instead of reinforce they should receive something else?
17 May 2016, 09:48 AM
#32
avatar of Mr.Smith

Posts: 2636 | Subs: 17

jump backJump back to quoted post17 May 2016, 09:15 AMNEVEC
Maybe instead of reinforce they should receive something else?


UKF Sappers kind of do get a -20% Received accuracy off the bat at Vet0. I am not 100% sure if compensation is really needed directly on the unit, here.

However Tommies -might- need some help. Tommies only really synergise with the rest of the faction only if you have Mortar Pits (Trenches and healing could be moved to a different unit, and nobody would miss Tommies). However, Mortar Pits seem to synergise better with emplacement spam than Tommy support.
17 May 2016, 09:55 AM
#33
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1

Yeah, royal engineers are indeed bit too stronk.

I'd suggest toning down the vet 3 reinforcement bonus and making the sweeper take up a weapon slot.
17 May 2016, 10:13 AM
#34
avatar of Firesparks

Posts: 1930

Yeah, royal engineers are indeed bit too stronk.

I'd suggest toning down the vet 3 reinforcement bonus and making the sweeper take up a weapon slot.




the sapper does appear too strong if you just compare unit to unit, but the british is still structured in such a way that it works.

the british need a buff elsewhere (NOT the emplacement) if the sappers are getting nerfed. The entire faction is in need of bunch of minor changes,
17 May 2016, 12:44 PM
#35
avatar of Smiling Tiger

Posts: 207

jump backJump back to quoted post17 May 2016, 06:51 AMKatitof

More expensive unit of role A > cheaper unit of role A.

Not sure if arguing for the sake of act of arguing or just that stupid :snfBarton:


Hes not stupid he was just responding to your argument in your first post where you said units in higher tiers should beat units in lower tiers simply because of their tier placement and he mentioned how cost was another factor.
17 May 2016, 13:05 PM
#36
avatar of Myself

Posts: 677

UKF is currently the most "exotically" designed faction and if these trend of homogenizing factions continues they will eventually see a redesign...
17 May 2016, 14:30 PM
#37
avatar of Banillo

Posts: 134

https://www.coh2.org/ladders/playercard/steamid/76561198049062069 <-- not a single brit game


when i play allies 4v4 i play with brits. i know this from playing with them and aginst them.

if the stats are right and and royal engineers can simply walk in to grens and win they are op
17 May 2016, 14:36 PM
#38
avatar of Banillo

Posts: 134

https://www.coh2.org/topic/40161/falls-current-performance-replay/page/1#post_id393738

here is a replay how op REs are. no changes were done to falls or REs since then.
18 May 2016, 05:55 AM
#39
avatar of wouren
Senior Social Media Manager Badge

Posts: 1281 | Subs: 3

I just think that the history of UKF thus far has been underpowered core infantry cancelled out by extreme faction cheese. One of the best buffs you could give to infantry sections is to switch base damage to their damage out of cover and strengthen them to their original normal damage once they leave cover. Right now you just have shitty vickers damage when you are out of cover.
18 May 2016, 06:11 AM
#40
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post18 May 2016, 05:55 AMwouren
I just think that the history of UKF thus far has been underpowered core infantry cancelled out by extreme faction cheese. One of the best buffs you could give to infantry sections is to switch base damage to their damage out of cover and strengthen them to their original normal damage once they leave cover. Right now you just have shitty vickers damage when you are out of cover.

The actual effect on their DPS considering cover bonus is like 5% for their base rifles so it's probably not the most significant factor.

Their terrible moving accuracy is probably more likely to be a big distinction.
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