These OKW HQ nerfs are over the top

Disclaimer: I'm only talking about 1v1 here.

So i'm going through the list of buffs/nerfs and i'm quite pissed off with the direction Relic/Miragefla are taking with these nerfs.

First of all; i'm happy pschrecks are removed, it will probably make somewhat of an end to the blobbing that is seen quite often as STG44'd blobs are... not that gud against mid/late game tanks.

To get to my point, currently OKW has the following options:
-> Go medic truck and get mediocre (at best) units with the ISG, IR HT (won't be taking that serious) and the Flak HT.
-> Go mechanized and receive units that can be used in every situation (need anti-infantry? luchs. need light AT? puma. brit abuser? stuka.), downside being you need to preserve your units a lot better as you are stuck without medics (going mechanized always means you are looking to pump out at least 1 vehicle at a cost of AT LEAST 60 fuel).

At this point it's fair imo, you either go for unit preservation -> medic truck or you are looking for counters to specific playstyles by your opponent -> mechanized.

But then...

Battlegroup Headquarters

• Medics must now be purchased as an upgrade. 100 manpower 15 Fuel.

This remove every incentive people would have to get the medic truck out first. Removing medics means you're stuck with ISG (only good against brits/more defensive players), IR HT (xD) and the Flak HT (more on that later. for now: underpowered). Going through the units i see no reason to get the medic truck over mechanized right now, having to pay for the upgrade to heal units means you're putting yourself at a disadvantage as you have to invest fuel you need for vehicles only to get a healing function. After that you need to have fuel for the halftrack and then fuel to upgrade it to mechanized and then the fuel to get a Puma/Luchs/Stuka.

Let's go through the other medic options for a moment:

Soviets -> medic in HQ, 250 manpower
Brits -> medic per unit, heal in aura 30 munitions
USF -> Ambulance, 250 manpower 10 fuel
Ost -> Bunker, manpower 150, 60 muni for medic

First thing that is noticeable is that, except for usf, all factions pay manpower and/or munitions for their healing capabilities and they all have somewhat fair prices.
-Soviet pay 250 manpower due to the consistent low risk it has (as it's attached to HQ) and the constant heal it gives.

-Brits pay 30 munitions for a decent heal but they require units to be inactive (close to the unit with the medpack) to get healed, thus meaning less map presence at the time they need to be healed.

-USF pays 10 fuel but they have a very mobile healing platform that can be positioned in such a way that they are able to keep constant pressure on the map, especially effective with the major.

-Ostheer pay less manpower than soviets but their medic bunker has a lot more risk attached. Opposing tanks can easily drive in, shoot the fragile bunker and drive back out again. If it's positioned outside of the base it can also 'easily' be taken out by any artillery or even infantry when properly equipped.

So what does OKW get for its medic facility? If the HQ is destroyed you lose the building options attached to it, thus making it important to not be positioned too far ahead. It's immobile so you can't reposition it if the battlefield changes and it's still quite fragile if not defended properly in fights. Meanwhile it still pays the most fuel out of all the factions for an immobile piece of shit that gives a solid healing off. My quick solution would be to change the cost to either between 20-40 munitions or just leave the medic function in the HQ.

If these nerfs go through OKW players will most likely go mechanized company first EVERY game as it's the only HQ that gives value to the army. Relic is trying to get rid of the 1dimensional gameplay that's currently being abused by Soviets in maxims -> IS2/SU76 spam but by nerfing this OKW HQ they are basically implementing 1dimensional gameplay somewhere else.

Also, giving the Flak HT an small AOE surpress (AOE around the main target it is firing at, that is) would give OKW players some more reason to go battlegroup HQ over mechanized. an AOE surpress means the Flak HT would be a more solid choice against blobbing players than the tanks that mechanized HQ offers. At this point the flak HT is near useless, 3-4 squads can be walking through eachother and only 1 will be surpressed.

As a final point i'd like to ask why miragefla was involved in all of these buffs/nerfs, for someone that basically helps design the whole flow of the game/meta he doesn't play a lot of UKF and OKW. Here, some tl;dr stats of this player:
OKW 81 games 1v1
Brits 2 games 1v1
USF 199 games 1v1
Ost 969 games 1v1
Sov 183 games 1v1

I'm not saying i should be contracted as balance designer instead of him, but it's quite weird someone with such a function fails to get a clear overview of what all the factions can do.

OKW will be just as bullshit then than it is now, I don't why people consider the next patch as a "NERF" for them.

You can bash my 1v1 rank, that's true my prefered faction is Ostheer, but it also discounts the game's I've played in tournament. I should play more in 1v1 ranked but the majority of my time since December has been taken up by working on the mod.

Yes, the OKW trucks could use some adjusting in their side-tech costs, it's something I've been thinking about, but if you've looked at other parts of my mod, thinks like the ISG and flak track were made more powerful.

40 munitions is way too little for healing as you suggest, however. It's still a tech structure and allows you to place the schewer down when resource are available.

Already attacking his playercard? Just stop being jealous.


There are some gross overbuffs and overnerfs , but you don't have to question the person himself.

To put things in perspective 100 MP and 15 Fuel is roughly 30 seconds of income... you make it sound like adding that upgrade cost is some huge burden but its not *that* expensive. It doesn't change the fact that OKW still has the most durable source of healing that also doubles as a Forward Retreat Point; a huge advantage in some maps/modes. You're basically paying for that advantage.

Simple fact is that adding the upgrade cost doesn't make Battlegroup starts less viable because ISGs and FRP are still useful and you'll eventually need the healing unless you want to rely on medical crates.

Best solution is to tweak the cost of SWS or Buildings accordingly or maybe change cost to MP only and/or Muni (fuel is kind of excessive given cost of OKW vehicles IMO)

First of all, i'm not bashing your 1v1 rank or preferred faction. I am only wondering why someone who has an noticeable influence in shaping the meta for the coming 1-2 months plays 1 faction significantly more. If Relic wants someone from the community to join in on the balancing department it's, in my opinion, a lot smarter to find someone who is consistently top 20/50 with several factions.

As this post is about vCoh2 patch i find it weird that your mod is involved in this. I dont want to discredit your work on the mod but i rather play the game vanilla, personal preference.

Yes, 40 munitions IS low, but it was the fastest thing i could come up with. I'm a bad balance designer so i'm not expecting Relic and/or you to just blindly go with 40 munitions, but with the currently planned nerfs to the Battlegroup HQ you are putting a big dent in how OKW is/can be played.

If Relic wants someone from the community to join in on the balancing department it's, in my opinion, a lot smarter to find someone who is consistently top 20/50 with several factions.

Being a top player does not imply a high acknowledge of game design or modding talent.

Already attacking his playercard? Just stop being jealous.


There are some gross overbuffs and overnerfs , but you don't have to question the person himself.

In this case it is actually quite reasonable to question the person. Putting someone who does not play at least 2 of the 5 factions on a regular basis in the balance team is, in my opinion, a questionable decision. Nowhere in my post am i saying 'lol this guy sucks look at his rank'. If you have nothing serious to add it might be better to stay away, thanks.

The medic HQ still acts as a free forward reinforce point for 0 cost, AND you can always use the sturmpios vet ability as an alternative in case you don't want to opt for the medic. Trust me, when I play as USF or Soviets I really wish I had an alternative healing method that didn't cost 250 mp.

So it seems pretty fair to me.

The medic HQ still acts as a free forward reinforce point for 0 cost, AND you can always use the sturmpios vet ability as an alternative in case you don't want to opt for the medic. Trust me, when I play as USF or Soviets I really wish I had an alternative healing method that didn't cost 250 mp.

So it seems pretty fair to me.

It is 300MP for the Forward Retreat Point upgrade....

Stop attacking playercard. Modder spend a lot of time on coh2 tool that include many actual values. I have spent too on tools for balance discussion

Tournament/Custom games > Ladder

Playing more games won't give you necessarily more knowledge on interactions or game mechanics. I think this preview patch is more about gathering information by spreading out "Mirage's mod" in order to get further playtests than a simple preview of what's coming up. There are good, bad and questionable changes but i think there's little point on discussing about the players on the balance group in comparison to the changes themselves.


Regarding the changes, i think it's a good idea to give side tech upgrades to OKW, but i do think healing should be more accessible. I'll rather put other things behind as upgrades (MG, flame nades, shreck/Panzerbuche) as leave the current status for the medics.

What could also work, is making SP vet1 medkits be AoE consumables while also putting them at vet0.

PD: what about bringing back resource conversion? Maybe as an upgrade? Maybe mp drain instead of muni/fuel drain?

Tournament/Custom games > Ladder

Playing more games won't give you necessarily more knowledge on interactions or game mechanics. I think this preview patch is more about gathering information by spreading out "Mirage's mod" in order to get further playtests than a simple preview of what's coming up. There are good, bad and questionable changes but i think there's little point on discussing about the players on the balance group in comparison to the changes themselves.


Regarding the changes, i think it's a good idea to give side tech upgrades to OKW, but i do think healing should be more accessible. I'll rather put other things behind as upgrades (MG, flame nades, shreck/Panzerbuche) as leave the current status for the medics.

What could also work, is making SP vet1 medkits be AoE consumables while also putting them at vet0.

PD: what about bringing back resource conversion? Maybe as an upgrade? Maybe mp drain instead of muni/fuel drain?

I don' t think messing with things too much is my preferred method. I like the idea of a simple upgrade. Maybe 15 fuel is too high, but it is close to the cost for all other factions. For comparison, 250 MP buys static healing at a Soviet base.

I suspect the price will change slightly but not much.

It is 300MP for the Forward Retreat Point upgrade....

He means the reinforcing part of it.

There isn't really much reason to build battlegroup now when most of the time you will need to go mechanised for Puma. Faust + raketen just isn't going to cut it for map control.

i agree with OP. with changes to units available from each HQ, the battlegroup HQ's primary early game utility is its healing and reinforce. building the retreat point costs 300 MP... they should keep medics as a free perk.

The Battlegroup HQ could use a reduction in manpower cost in order to have it a forward retreat point. Maybe drop it to 225 manpower...

OKW is dumbest faction ever created with shitest design and any changes won't fix them unless completly remade. You removed pazerschreks from volks and give them stg's instead? Fine. Be prepared for 6 volks strat with double/triple pupchen support + Puma/Luchs. What's the point getting additional sturmpio or elite infantry like expensive Obers or Falls if you have cheap, basic infantry with powerful AI upgrade? They could receive somehow buffed MP40's but not StG's. Anyway, RiP Heal building. LeIG isn't real reason to go for it. HT is dead if you have doctrinal MG-42 and nondoctrinal MG-34. And I would like to ask you Miragefla, why you decided to put MG-42 instead? Imo Kubelwagen would be much better instead. And I could point out it more but I don't see the reason for it. To sum up, OKW need rework, not only changing units stats. I would like to see if they back to his old resource system but it's not balance sugestion but my personal wish.
Regards

OKW is dumbest faction ever created with shitest design and any changes won't fix them unless completly remade. You removed pazerschreks from volks and give them stg's instead? Fine. Be prepared for 6 volks strat with double/triple pupchen support + Puma/Luchs. What's the point getting additional sturmpio or elite infantry like expensive Obers or Falls if you have cheap, basic infantry with powerful AI upgrade? They could receive somehow buffed MP40's but not StG's. Anyway, RiP Heal building. LeIG isn't real reason to go for it. HT is dead if you have doctrinal MG-42 and nondoctrinal MG-34. And I would like to ask you Miragefla, why you decided to put MG-42 instead? Imo Kubelwagen would be much better instead. And I could point out it more but I don't see the reason for it. To sum up, OKW need rework, not only changing units stats. I would like to see if they back to his old resource system but it's not balance sugestion but my personal wish.
Regards

Agree. At least the original design had some choice and different strategies available. Now they are just inferior Wehrmacht locked to one strategy.

i have to agree that the old okw gave a better feeling, and i personaly dont like the direction where the changes are heading - Homogenization isnt the right way of balancing armies :/