Why change the spawn system?

not a good idea to make them poop out of buildings... please dont make this change and whatever made you do this think of a workaround please please

Pretty much, I hated this stupid spawn off the map crap since release.

+1

The point is to make placing buildings important. If you wanna play super safe, place your buildings at the back of your base. If you wanna play super agressive and hi-risk, place your buildings at the very front of your base. Your units get out faster, but you run the risk of your buildings being sniped by AT-guns or tanks.

The point is to put some more strategy back into this game. The designers blundered when they removed strategic elements from COH2. The left-hand-side and right-hand-side commander tree choices from COH1 are a perfect example. Why in the world would you remove that system, and make commander abilities auto-unlock? Were they trying to take the "S" out of RTS?!?

Anything they do to put more strategy back into the game is a good thing, imo. I never liked the off-map spawn points.

+10000

You should already be building base buildings at base limits so you can reinforce closer to the field. This change only affects new unit production, which would significantly speed up earlygame engagements considering how fucking far units have to trek across their HQ sectors right now.

To me this sounds like a "minor" inconvenience that Relic could solve by allowing you to queue repair/construction commands while your units are on the way. However, the disadvantages that the new system will bring are major:
- USF and UKF have no option to place their buildings. In essence, Relic deadlocked themselves into this when they designed those two factions that way.
- In teamgame oriented maps, walking to the desired edge could take up to 1 minute. So, what do you do?
A. Spend the first minute of the battle waiting for your pioneers walk to build your T1 at the other end of the map.
B. Build your T1 locally, and then assume an additional 1 minute delay for every new squad that you want to spawn/
- Is reducing spawning delay by 20 seconds worth adding a 60 second delay to the majority of the gamemodes? Think about it; if somebody feels so pissed about a 20 second delay (in 1v1) to create a thread, how many more people will be pissed about an 60 second delay (in 4v4)?
- Even if you try to optimize your spawn point, the dynamics of a battle change (they always do in teamgames; especially with forward retreat points). However, you're screwed, because now you are married to the spot you built your T1.

To make sure we are on the same page about this issue:
- Most people play automatch games in CoH2. The automatch system assigns people to random locations.
- All factions in CoH2 are viable to play. However, having 2 of the same faction on the same side is usually limiting (some factions lack options. E.g., OKW is weak on suppression, Brits are weak on indirect fire). Thus, you want to mix the factions, even if the random placement screwed you over.
- Some 3v3 maps are actually 4v4 maps where only 3 out of 4 spawnpoints are used. The decision which 3 spawn points will be used is also random.

This issue probably doesn't appear in CoH1 currently, because:
- Most teamgames are usually arranged through custom games. People can decide their starting locations there.
- PE and Brits are not self-sufficient factions. Even in 2v2 most people will shy away from them. Thus, the whole 'mixing the factions' argument becomes less of an issue.
- There are exactly 3 3v3 maps and 2 (or 3) 4v4 maps in total in CoH1, and all spawn points are used. Thus, there is no way that an "optimal" spawn point will not be used. However, even if you were planning on using the Automatch queue, nobody queues up there anymore.

However, the whole babysit-your-rally point is a godsent, since it allows you to overcome all of these issues, and more:
- If the random placement screws your team over, the Rally point system allows you to overcome it.
- If the dynamics of the battle change, you can choose where to spawn your support weapons/tanks/etc to support your teammates. This makes battle feel less lane-based and rewards teamwork

To sum up:
- Currently, all players on all game-modes experience a ~15 sec delay when the squad spawns?
- With the new system, players in 1v1 experience no delay. Players in 4v4 will experience a 60 second delay.

Wouldn't you say that a more egalitarian system would be better?

To me this sounds like a "minor" inconvenience that Relic could solve by allowing you to queue repair/construction commands while your units are on the way. However, the disadvantages that the new system will bring are major:
- USF and UKF have no option to place their buildings. In essence, Relic deadlocked themselves into this when they designed those two factions that way.

This is irrelevant. Units you build with these factions won't come from off-map, they'll appear next to the building that built them, the only disadvantage you have is no ability to build your structures closer to the field. This is offset by the fact that you don't need to dedicate a unit to actually constructing the structure.

- In teamgame oriented maps, walking to the desired edge could take up to 1 minute. So, what do you do?
A. Spend the first minute of the battle waiting for your pioneers walk to build your T1 at the other end of the map.
B. Build your T1 locally, and then assume an additional 1 minute delay for every new squad that you want to spawn/
- Is reducing spawning delay by 20 seconds worth adding a 60 second delay to the majority of the gamemodes? Think about it; if somebody feels so pissed about a 20 second delay (in 1v1) to create a thread, how many more people will be pissed about an 60 second delay (in 4v4)?

This makes no sense if you actually think about what you're saying logically. Say you have to walk a unit for 15 seconds in order to get to where you need to build your T1. That means your first T1 unit is delayed by 15 seconds. However, once that unit is done being built, it appears at the T1 structure. If it had appeared off-map, it would have had to make up that 15 second walk itself anyways (actually it probably would have been longer, since off-map spawn points are usually fairly far behind HQ buildings). Your first unit's timing is a complete wash, and every subsequent unit hits the field 15 seconds quicker than it would have otherwise. There is absolutely zero downside for the player.

__________[HQ]------------------>T1 = 15 seconds
[SpawnPoint]----------------------->T1 = > 15 seconds

- Even if you try to optimize your spawn point, the dynamics of a battle change (they always do in teamgames; especially with forward retreat points). However, you're screwed, because now you are married to the spot you built your T1.

That's what makes it a strategic decision. Strategic decisions have consequences. Sheltering the player from strategic decisions and their consequences is one of the main reasons why CoH2 struggles as a strategy game.

To make sure we are on the same page about this issue:
- Most people play automatch games in CoH2. The automatch system assigns people to random locations.
- All factions in CoH2 are viable to play. However, having 2 of the same faction on the same side is usually limiting (some factions lack options. E.g., OKW is weak on suppression, Brits are weak on indirect fire). Thus, you want to mix the factions, even if the random placement screwed you over.
- Some 3v3 maps are actually 4v4 maps where only 3 out of 4 spawnpoints are used. The decision which 3 spawn points will be used is also random.

This issue probably doesn't appear in CoH1 currently, because:
- Most teamgames are usually arranged through custom games. People can decide their starting locations there.
- PE and Brits are not self-sufficient factions. Even in 2v2 most people will shy away from them. Thus, the whole 'mixing the factions' argument becomes less of an issue.
- There are exactly 3 3v3 maps and 2 (or 3) 4v4 maps in total in CoH1, and all spawn points are used. Thus, there is no way that an "optimal" spawn point will not be used. However, even if you were planning on using the Automatch queue, nobody queues up there anymore.

None of this is even remotely relevant to the discussion or any of my points. These are map design issues that have no bearing on how units are fundamentally produced and fielded.

However, the whole babysit-your-rally point is a godsent, since it allows you to overcome all of these issues, and more:
- If the random placement screws your team over, the Rally point system allows you to overcome it.
- If the dynamics of the battle change, you can choose where to spawn your support weapons/tanks/etc to support your teammates. This makes battle feel less lane-based and rewards teamwork

The first point is fair, but I'd argue that it is more a map design problem, just like your above complaints. Fixing shitty design with even shittier design is not a solution, it's a bandaid. The second point is intended behaviour. Players should be forced to make strategic decisions, and those strategic decisions should have consequences. If you fucked up your building placement, well, you look a gamble and it didn't pay off. Players should be forced to make those sorts of decisions, and they should impact the outcome of the game.

The off-map spawn system was an artificial attempt to inject some realism into the game at the pure expense of gameplay. It was only there to make the game seem more "real". It had no gameplay benefit; in fact, it made gameplay worse.

First of all, it made building placement essentially irrelevant. That alone isn't really a big deal, but because Relic trimmed away strategic decision-making in so many other places at the same time, it meant one less meaningful decision for players to have to make. You could lose games in CoH1, and in pretty much every other RTS game in existence, thanks to poor building placement. CoH2 lacking that decision was just one less decision it forced players to make, and the whole point of a competitive game is forcing players to make decisions that have real consequences.

Second, it forced you to babysit your rally points. You could argue that this meant good players were able to use this to their advantage, and you would be right, but that doesn't make it less silly. If there was some other way besides rally points to decide which point units spawned at you could make a stronger argument that they added interesting gameplay, but the way they were implemented was just ridiculous.

And finally, they made microing and using newly created units frustrating as fuck. A good player is going to keep track of build progress and use units the moment they're created. But thanks to the off-map spawn system, units couldn't be fully controlled unit they walked onto the map proper. The most frustrating side effect of this was the fact that you couldn't issue repair orders until the unit was on the map, which means the gameplay flow of a good player who sees a repair unit is finished, selects it, clicks on a unit to repair, and then shifts his attention to other things is completely ruined. You have to keep going back to check on that unit to see if it's on the field yet or not, and the time it takes for a unit to get on the field is different for every map, every starting position, and every spawn point. A unit should be fully usable the moment it is available to be selected; anything else is a recipe for frustration. You also couldn't view and select units the moment they spawned on some maps and in some starting positions, which meant time wasted waiting for units to walk into your camera view. You would be punished for being fast and reacting immediately to new unit production.

It made for extremely frustrating and jarring moments for players, and it gave absolutely no benefit in return. It was a pure "realism" design element that actively made gameplay worse. It never should have been there in the first place.

all of this +1

also, from a perspective of maps, units coming from buildings relieves mappers from worrying about units coming into a map and how to properly implement that. most mappers arent mentally geared towards thinking about the strategic and competitive implications of things like...units coming in from off map so i need to do X Y and Z. And i need to test that feature on top of the 10000 other things that need to be considered.

Units coming from off map is an unnecessary feature that adds yet another layer to mapping that shouldent be there and everything that inverse said makes a difference in game.

FYI if Relic wanted to have units come off map for realistic campaigns or NON ladder game modes of some kind where it makes sense, im all for it. But for ladder games of any kind units should come from buildings as in COH1.

End of story.

Meh, advantages and benefits for both methods. I think off map does lend more realism but on map makes built units have a quicker effect on the battlefield which could be interesting, but not overly so.

My primary concern is units will just 'appear' at the base building edge, not come out of an entrance etc. Although to be fair in CoH1 2.602 tanks used to disappear and reappear and if we can get over that I'm sure we could get over this.

I vote in favour of the change and bringing back the vcoh style system. However I agree it will look very odd having units pop out of thin air as it were. Atleast in vcoh you had tell-tale signs of units being produced with flashing lights and welding sparks flying out of buildings for infantry and tanks respectively. What further made this cool was that you could see the units exit the building after production, for instance the Kreig Barracks would open its doors to let out a vehicle or pak gun.

I would be in favour on giving Ostheer back its old vcoh style buildings all together. I have always hated the way both the Ostheer and Soviets buildings looked as well as the lack of customisation with Brits and USF bases.

Recall that my whole point is about large maps.

These are maps that, in order to walk from your HQ to outside the base sector, it can take up to a minute.

Think about what happens to the guy that spawns in the corner of the Steppes map for instance, and that team decides to harass the south end.

Takeaway: 1 minute walking time from HQ to edge is entirely possible.

This makes no sense if you actually think about what you're saying logically. Say you have to walk a unit for 15 seconds in order to get to where you need to build your T1. That means your first T1 unit is delayed by 15 seconds. However, once that unit is done being built, it appears at the T1 structure. If it had appeared off-map, it would have had to make up that 15 second walk itself anyways (actually it probably would have been longer, since off-map spawn points are usually fairly far behind HQ buildings). Your first unit's timing is a complete wash, and every subsequent unit hits the field 15 seconds quicker than it would have otherwise. There is absolutely zero downside for the player.

__________[HQ]------------------>T1 = 15 seconds
[SpawnPoint]----------------------->T1 = > 15 seconds

The way I see this:
- Your pioneers spawn at your HQ.
- It will take 1 minute to walk to the edge of the base sector closest to your aggression point.
- During that one minute you build nothing. This is while you watch the only unit you can control walk for one minute, so that you can start building something. This doesn't sound exciting, does it?
- Alternatively, you decide you don't want to wait, and every single unit from that tier will take an 1-minute delay to reach the destination.

I am completely with you on the strategic risk-gain thing. However, this is just going to delay the least exciting, most decision-free phase of the game (the 30-second building phase) unnecessarily long. This is completely unfun.

The first point is fair, but I'd argue that it is more a map design problem, just like your above complaints. Fixing shitty design with even shittier design is not a solution, it's a bandaid. The second point is intended behaviour. Players should be forced to make strategic decisions, and those strategic decisions should have consequences. If you fucked up your building placement, well, you look a gamble and it didn't pay off. Players should be forced to make those sorts of decisions, and they should impact the outcome of the game.

I completely agree with you about the problem being map design.

However, there are 20~something maps in the mappool that benefit from this bandaid. Until we fix each of these maps, the bandaid should say on, or it will generate an outcry.

I vote in favour of the change and bringing back the vcoh style system. However I agree it will look very odd having units pop out of thin air as it were. Atleast in vcoh you had tell-tale signs of units being produced with flashing lights and welding sparks flying out of buildings for infantry and tanks respectively. What further made this cool was that you could see the units exit the building after production, for instance the Kreig Barracks would open its doors to let out a vehicle or pak gun.

I would be in favour on giving Ostheer back its old vcoh style buildings all together. I have always hated the way both the Ostheer and Soviets buildings looked as well as the lack of customisation with Brits and USF bases.

great first point

agreed on all

Im not sure about this some of the old early game base rushes in coh were pretty silly. Get a couple of half tracks fill them up with infantry and charge the enemy. You know exactly where there units are going to spawn and you just mow them down as they spawn. I believe relic fixed this in coh2 by giving you multiple spawn points around the base so if you do get rushed they dont no where your going to spawn stuff so you can organise some kind of counter play or just ignore them and cap the map. Would it not be possible to have it both ways so you can spawn from either edge of the map or spawn from your buildings?

Im not sure about this some of the old early game base rushes in coh were pretty silly. Get a couple of half tracks fill them up with infantry and charge the enemy. You know exactly where there units are going to spawn and you just mow them down as they spawn. I believe relic fixed this in coh2 by giving you multiple spawn points around the base so if you do get rushed they dont no where your going to spawn stuff so you can organise some kind of counter play or just ignore them and cap the map. Would it not be possible to have it both ways so you can spawn from either edge of the map or spawn from your buildings?

imo, this was is problem for vehicles and tanks and since they are still off map I am content with this new spawn system

The way I see this:
- Your pioneers spawn at your HQ.
- It will take 1 minute to walk to the edge of the base sector closest to your aggression point.
- During that one minute you build nothing. This is while you watch the only unit you can control walk for one minute, so that you can start building something. This doesn't sound exciting, does it?
- Alternatively, you decide you don't want to wait, and every single unit from that tier will take an 1-minute delay to reach the destination.

I am completely with you on the strategic risk-gain thing. However, this is just going to delay the least exciting, most decision-free phase of the game (the 30-second building phase) unnecessarily long. This is completely unfun.

What does excitement have to do with anything? How is waiting an extra 60 seconds for every single unit you produce to walk onto the field exciting?

This doesn't delay anything at all, it just rearranges the order of actions. Say it takes 30 seconds to build a structure, 30 seconds to build a unit, and 60 seconds to walk from your HQ to the furthest forward point on your HQ sector. There are two scenarios:

Build T1 beside HQ = 30 seconds
Build T1 unit = 30 seconds
Walk to field = 60 seconds
Total = 120 seconds

Walk to edge of HQ sector = 60 seconds
Build T1 structure = 30 seconds
Build T1 unit = 30 seconds
Total = 120 seconds

See? It's literally identical. Literally nothing changes. In fact, the pace of the game after that initial build will increase, since you'll be saving the 60-second walk to the field every single time you build a unit.

It will speed up the general pace of early game which is tediouts in its current state.


It is also an indirect buff for OKW, in order to compensate for idiotic, uncalled for nerfs.

Also, note, that if we are going for vCoH-style-is better, Relic should also probably shift unit production around to.

In CoH1, the only units that you could build from the HQ (which you could not relocate) were Pioneers. Anything else would have to appear from a structure that you had to build.

In CoH1 it's a mess. The following factions have the following non-engineer units tied to the HQ (and thus, no way to optimize their spawn points, no matter how much the player screams):
- OKW: Volks, Raketen (AT gun), Kubel
- Soviets: Conscripts
- OST: MG42
(USF/UKF: all)

Don't you agree that this will create an inconsistency (possibly imbalance too, where none existed) between factions if we take this decision now, so many years after each of these factions were created?

This change has no effect on HQ-produced units at all. Their advantage has always been their ability to be produced without having to spend time building a structure, and their ability to be produced in tandem with units in other structures. The fact that they might lose a few seconds of travel time because they can't spawn as close to the field as other units will have a negligible impact on balance.

Stop thinking in terms of balance impact. This community's obsession with balance is infuriating. Balance impact is impossible to predict. This is a design change, not a balance change, and it's a clear and obvious improvement over the current design. Worry about balance when there's actual reason to worry.

This change has no effect on HQ-produced units at all. Their advantage has always been their ability to be produced without having to spend time building a structure, and their ability to be produced in tandem with units in other structures. The fact that they might lose a few seconds of travel time because they can't spawn as close to the field as other units will have a negligible impact on balance.

Stop thinking in terms of balance impact. This community's obsession with balance is infuriating. Balance impact is impossible to predict. This is a design change, not a balance change, and it's a clear and obvious improvement over the current design. Worry about balance when there's actual reason to worry.

I see your points, and you are completely correct about it only affecting the initial building order (increasing the delay for the first unit, decreasing the delay for every unit thereafter). I'm not sure why my brain fumbled.

In any case, the retreat path (which you cannot really affect), will hold more sway over the game than the delay it takes to field the first unit.

This is irrelevant. Units you build with these factions won't come from off-map, they'll appear next to the building that built them, the only disadvantage you have is no ability to build your structures closer to the field. This is offset by the fact that you don't need to dedicate a unit to actually constructing the structure.
...

Irrelevant? A one TIME time loss for constructing a building versus an entire games worth of lost time for travel from the static base? Hardly equivalent, IMO. And where's OKW's units going to spawn from? Anywhere a tier truck is planted on the battle field?


And the only thing I really don't like about the current spawn is that even though the system supposed picks the closest spawn point from the rally point you select. However, it seems like it does this via physical distance, and not pathing distance. Some maps, it seems pretty dopey why it picks a spawn point that is opposite of where the rally point is.

This change has no effect on HQ-produced units at all. Their advantage has always been their ability to be produced without having to spend time building a structure, and their ability to be produced in tandem with units in other structures. The fact that they might lose a few seconds of travel time because they can't spawn as close to the field as other units will have a negligible impact on balance.

Stop thinking in terms of balance impact. This community's obsession with balance is infuriating. Balance impact is impossible to predict. This is a design change, not a balance change, and it's a clear and obvious improvement over the current design. Worry about balance when there's actual reason to worry.

It may be a design improvement in 1v1 and maybe even 2v2, but in 3v3 and 4v4 all it will do is make the units of those who got unlucky take much longer to reach the fuel. For example, if you're playing bottom as OKW on steppes, and you need an Ost MG42 to come to your side so that you can lock down the bottom fuel point, normally the Ost player would just set his rally point on the bottom so that the MG42 spawns on the bottom. If the design change was implemented though, his MG42 would come 30-90 seconds later than it would normally, which is more than enough time to lose island on steppes. Sure, if he spawned on the bottom, his MG42 might come a few seconds faster, but if you get unlucky and your Ost player is on top, there's a decent chance the MG won't arrive soon enough, leading to you losing that side and, due to how steppes works too much of the time, the game.

What they really should just implement is a per-building option to choose whether the unit will spawn at the rally point or at the tech building itself. That way, all players can tailor their base to the style they choose.

Irrelevant? A one TIME time loss for constructing a building versus an entire games worth of lost time for travel from the static base? Hardly equivalent, IMO. And where's OKW's units going to spawn from? Anywhere a tier truck is planted on the battle field?


And the only thing I really don't like about the current spawn is that even though the system supposed picks the closest spawn point from the rally point you select. However, it seems like it does this via physical distance, and not pathing distance. Some maps, it seems pretty dopey why it picks a spawn point that is opposite of where the rally point is.

PE wasn't broken in CoH1 because of this. Sure, maybe they'll have to tweak some stuff going forward, but that's not a reason to forego a design change that is a net positive on the game.

OKW's situation was one I hadn't considered and complicates things. Personally I find it more interesting from a gameplay perspective to allow units to spawn from trucks because it adds a risk/reward dynamic that wouldn't have been there previously, but I don't have enough recent gameplay experience to know if that is a practical change to make.