A radical idea to rebalance T-34/76

TL;DR:
- Problem: T34-76 is extremely MP-inefficient, given its late arrival.
- Meta-Problem: Soviets can't trade efficiently MP-wise in extreme-late game. Unless they pick one of the few valid late-game doctrines
- Meta-Solution: Give soviets a unit that is efficient MP-wise. But make it inefficient FU-wise, so that it can't be spammed too much.

- Let's assume that T34-76 currently performs like a 250 MP / 80 FU unit (debatable)
- Alter the cost of T34-76 and make it cost something like 210 MP / 100 FU (again, subject to debate)


This one doesn't need a very long introduction.

1. T-34 is currently UP

This is because of:
1. Its late arrival and
2. Its inefficiency MP-wise:
- When compared to other medium tanks that come earlier, and
- Especially when compared to late-game machinery of other factions (Allies and Axis), which are de-facto MP-efficient.

AI performance:
- Terrible scatter (horizontal and vertical).
- Slower reload speed.
- Inferior MG DPS (Turret, Hull) to other medium tanks.
- Unable to upgrade pintle MGs.

AT performance:
- Slower moving speed than peers (with Blitzkrieg factored in).
- 50% moving accuracy penalty (like most Axis tanks).
- Gun with the lowest penetration.
- Slower reload speed.

In short, T-34 is plain terrible in all fronts. Even more-so its late arrival. I don't think that its true performance has been really taken into account when pricing the unit.

2. (ignoring teching) T-34 should probably cost around 250 MP / 80 FU

If you compare the T-34 to other medium, generalist tanks:
- Generalist medium tank (Panzer 4, Sherman, Cromwell) MP-to-fuel ratio is around 3:1
- By the time T-34 becomes available, we have Panthers, Comets, etc (MP-to-fuel ratio is 2.8:1)
- The MP-to-fuel ratio for T-34 is 3.75:1

The 250 MP / 80 FU value I picked is arbitrary, but I based it on the following observations:
- Most people will agree that 80 FU is a good price for T-34 (you get what you paid for)
- Most generalist tanks' MP-to-Fuel ratio is 3:1
- T-34's can be still be used to drive over infantry, even if their guns suck (AKA the M10 effect).

3. What would happen if we priced T-34's at 210MP / 100 FU?

(This price is completely arbitrary; The lower bound is that the T-34 should not cost less MP than the T-70. I am open to suggestions though.)

The procedure behind picking the price is the following:
- Find the right MP/FU cost for T-34's (e.g., 250 MP, 80 FU)
- Convert some of the MP cost to FU, using whatever conversion ratio is considered the standard for late-game.

If we gave T-34's a decent price, Soviet players might eventually start building them without shooting themselves in the foot.

However, that's not good enough:
- T-34's become available too late in the game. The opposition already has better MP-efficient tanks on the field.
- Moreover, even a cost-efficient T-34 will not be able to keep up with doctrinal (sometimes no-tech) options that are more micro-efficient. Thus, pricing T-34s appropriately will not deliver Soviets from doctrinal dependencies.
- Finally, what is the reward to the Soviet player for teching all the way to T4? The Katyusha and the SU-85 are both great, but they are severely outclassed by their counterparts.

Idea: what if we made T-34's very MP efficient, at the cost of making them fuel inefficient?
- Soviet infantry (even Maxims) just doesn't scale into the late game.
- Soviets will require some unit that is efficient to recoup some of the MP bleed that is unavoidable. Let's give that role to T-34's.
- In order to prevent spam cheese, let's make T-34's cost more fuel, so that only players with good fuel control can exercise that option.
- Bonus: It gives Soviets a stronger incentive to capture fuel for themselves rather than to solely deny it to OST/OKW.

4. Why offset some of the MP cost to FU cost?

Currently, if you find yourself floating fuel late-game as Soviets, odds are you will never be able to use that fuel.

By attaching a Fuel-to-MP conversion gimmick to T-34, the Soviet player will almost always have something to build on all occasions.
1. Low on manpower? Throw a T-34 into the mix.
2. Low on fuel? Go for a support gun, engineers, infantry (whatever is needed)
3. Resource situation is ok? Buy/save for a specialist unit.

Options 2 & 3 basically mean "Play Soviets as you currently play Soviets" (because most people aren't building T-34's anyway). Option 1 adds a new avenue that will probably help us see more of that tank.

Besides, all late-game capable factions do the same to some degree (for their late-game units):
- OST: Panthers
- UKF: Comet (ever noticed that Churchill-based builds tend to sag a bit?)
- OKW: P4, Panthers, Heavies (KT, Command Panther, JT, etc)

5. FAQ (Why not...)

Q. Why not move T-34 back to T3. Wouldn't that solve the problem with the T-34?
A. In that case we would get to see:
- There would be an overlap between T-34's and T-70's, and most likely the T-34 would phase-out the T-70.
- T-34's will be rushed. This might, or might not create balance issues.
- T-34's would still not be built in the late game. For the same reason nobody builds T-34's in the late-game.
- It still doesn't answer the following question: "Why would somebody ever tech to T4, if you only get the Katyusha and the SU-85?". Thus, trapping the Soviets into the current doctrinal dependencies.

Q. Why not move T-34/76 to T3 and add T-34/85. Wouldn't that solve both the T-34/76 issue and the T4 issue?
A. Perhaps it would. However:
- It would not give Soviets something truly special for teching to T4 (just a shoddier version of OST T4).
- What do we do with those 3 doctrines whose main selling point was the T-34/85?

Q. Why not fix (X, Y, Z) about T-34, but not touch its price?
A. Reread section 4 carefully. Soviets simply lack fuel-sink options that other factions get from their T4. There is no point in having units in T4 that are extremely fuel-efficient, since there is no more teching to be done. You can't use that fuel!

6. Caveats (Soviet Industry, Lend Lease, etc)

If 210/100 T-34's become too spam-y, we have the following options.
- Bundle T-34's into pairs (420 MP, 200 FU for 2 T-34's) or triplets.

This suggestion might favour resource conversion doctrines too much (Lend Lease, Soviet Industry). Maybe propose a way to limit these gains?

Pardon my ignorance, I've not been playing the game for long, but why can't the T-34/76 be at tier 3 with an increased cost, such that it arrives at around the same time as Pz IV's?

Some good ideas here. If the t34/76 remains at the current price that's fine but it could still use some small buffs. Mainly moving accuracy seems to be a problem (whats the point in flanking if your tank will miss so often).

I may be wrong but I believe the t34/76s moving accuracy is 50%, much worse than other mediums like the Sherman and Cromwell who are at 75%. So the t34 could use an accuracy buff. Another solution is to reduce the cost of t4 slightly so that it arrives faster, or put it back into t3 expect with a requirement to unlock it. Such as a 6 or 7 cp requirement or at least 2 or 3 vehicles that must be built from the same tier before unlocking.

I don't think the T34/76 needs any buffs. I think it is a fine vehicle. The only change needed to Soviet T4 is a slight buff to the katuyska, as it lacks the punch to support T34/76s against AT guns. Removing the downtime between salvos of the katuyska would fix a lot of Soviets lategame non-doctrinal problems.

I've been saying this since the day that they put T-34/76 into T4, "Put T-34/85 in T4 and T-34/76 in T3 but with an increased cost of fuel not MP." And no one is listening to me. Also /76 ain't good against infantry so if you go up against a Volks with shrecks know that you're just feeding them vet unless you try to run 'em over.

give T3476 stats of Cromwell and adjust price. Problem fixed. THis will be real T3476

Im still for making T34/76 a doctrinal call in.

Make T34/85 Non doc, while T34/76 would be cheap and weak call in with T3 required.

simply bring bad the old reload time

It's kinda sad that one of the most produced tanks in the war has been completely sidelined when it should be a cornerstone of the faction. I play 1v1 and 2v2 and I can't remember the last time I faced an enemy T34/76 or built one myself.

All I can say about OP's idea is that the suggested change or a similar one would be a dream for soviet industry doctrine, might be a balance issue.

At the very least it needs to come out earlier than it does now.

Edit: On second thought, can't really make it come out earlier without moving to t3, where it was too early. Maybe just a buff and price increase. Idk.

I've been advocating something similar to the OP for a while. The heart and soul of the T34/76 is a swarm-y piece of crap tank, which would also make it unique from the more "quality" mediums of the other factions. MP reduction + fuel hike is the way to go, though I would personally argue closer to 240/90.

I used to think the T34/85 as stock was a good idea, but the SU-85 is already outclassed by SU-76s. Making it also compete with stock T34/85s would probably kill the SU-85.

Im still for making T34/76 a doctrinal call in.

Make T34/85 Non doc, while T34/76 would be cheap and weak call in with T3 required.

This would make a lot of sense, the soviets would finally have a non-doctrinal tank that doesn't get completely outscaled in the later stages of the game.

They're not that bad for the current price, maybe give them the old reload back but nothing else.

really if you put the price down to 250mp 80fuel people will just play windustry each game and fueldrop spam T-34's. Nothing else to spend your muni on and medium tanks cheaper than maxims

I used to think the T34/85 as stock was a good idea, but the SU-85 is already outclassed by SU-76s. Making it also compete with stock T34/85s would probably kill the SU-85.

T-34-85 in stock is best and simpliest way to fix T4, really!. About SU-85 - let Relic buff it damage/penetration to Firefly's level and call it Su-100. Will be pretty usefull against KTs and Panthers.

I may be wrong but I believe the t34/76s moving accuracy is 50%, much worse than other mediums like the Sherman and Cromwell who are at 75%.

As a rule of thumb:
- UKF and USF vehicles have 75% moving accuracy.
- OST and SU vehicles have 50% moving accuracy.

Things get a bit mixed up for OKW though:
- Most OKW vehicles have 50% moving accuracy
- OKW panther has 65% moving accuracy
- HOWEVER: "Combat Blitz" (vet1 ability for Panther/Panzer4) increases accuracy by 100% (among other things). Thus, a moving Panther with "Combat Blitz" is more accurate than a stationary T-34. lol :3

I don't think the T34/76 needs any buffs. I think it is a fine vehicle. The only change needed to Soviet T4 is a slight buff to the katuyska, as it lacks the punch to support T34/76s against AT guns. Removing the downtime between salvos of the katuyska would fix a lot of Soviets lategame non-doctrinal problems.

This is an interesting proposal for the Katyusha. Buffing the Katyusha to other rocket artillery levels would be one way to mitigate the effects of Pak-walling and Volks-blobbing (both of which are a bane to T-34 aggression), so that T-34s have an easier time to maneuver.

However, I don't want to see artillery overbuffed, as it will turn 4v4's into the arty-fest wasteland everybody loves to poke fun at

My idea behind making T-34/76's MP efficient is to give Soviets some of that late-game MP float that OKW is usually accused of. Since Soviet infantry doesn't scale well enough, something ought to give way and create some breathing space for late-game Soviets.

Thus a Soviet player can spend their resources to bring on T34's as the meat of their army, and also have some MP to spare for the odd infantry squad/support weapon if needed.

give T3476 stats of Cromwell and adjust price. Problem fixed. THis will be real T3476

This is an option. However, I am not sure people are very happy about Cromwell spam already. (probably it's tolerated because the alternatives are Comet spam or Emplacement spam). Thus, I didn't want to replicate the "success story" of Cromwells in a different faction

Btw, bear in mind that the Cromwell receives several other side-benefits that make it even better than the mere sum of its stats:
- Smoke shells
- Sappers > Combat Engineers
- Choice between Warspeed or lightning-fast repairs

EDIT:
Also, I am not sure what state this would leave T34/85's at. I would like us to reach a state where both 76's and 85's are viable for their own niche; I don't want to see a meta inversion.

All I can say about OP's idea is that the suggested change or a similar one would be a dream for soviet industry doctrine, might be a balance

I am already aware of it (Caveats). However, I really don't know of a way to fix that conflict without changing/removing that ability. Examples:
- Drastically increase the cooldown between drops (so that you can't get too far ahead)
- Change the conversion to Manpower-for-Fuel (thus, if you want fast T34's you kind of negate the advantage the new design gives you)
- Make it a copy-paste of the similar OST ability (similar reasoning)

Slight buff to MG. That's it.

I was going to say the tank is fine, but Slayer actually got a good idea, a slight buff to mg dps would be nice

As a rule of thumb:
- UKF and USF vehicles have 75% moving accuracy.
- OST and SU vehicles have 50% moving accuracy.

Things get a bit mixed up for OKW though:
- Most OKW vehicles have 50% moving accuracy
- OKW panther has 65% moving accuracy
- HOWEVER: "Combat Blitz" (vet1 ability for Panther/Panzer4) increases accuracy by 100% (among other things). Thus, a moving Panther with "Combat Blitz" is more accurate than a stationary T-34. lol :3

Thanks for clearing things up. I guess the vanilla factions are at a disadvantage for no apparent reason then. #justrelicthings

T-34-85 in stock is best and simpliest way to fix T4, really!. About SU-85 - let Relic buff it damage/penetration to Firefly's level and call it Su-100. Will be pretty usefull against KTs and Panthers.

Eh, it works, buts its a bland fix. To me personally, being able to have 2-3 tanks for each of my opponent's is a much more interesting design.

Eh, it works, buts its a bland fix. To me personally, being able to have 2-3 tanks for each of my opponent's is a much more interesting design.

But you won't have 2-3 tanks for each of your opponent's. It's very hard to keep T-34-76 tank groups full alive, when you using them. Axis is full of all kinds of possible AT - from Schrecks to Jagdtigers. I remember, when I used it myself with old soviet industry. Making 6 T-34-76 tanks and faceroll, that was cool. But even then, Axis could resist to such assault, cos Panthers are well armored and move fast enough for to not to be encircled by T-34, Schrecks killing 1 your T-34 each 15 seconds, etc...

In other words - for to make T-34-76 it should be spammable in level "easy to get fast 4-5 T-34-76", cos only in 4-5 numbers they can be effective. For to make them that spammable they should cost even less, than they are now. At least in MP.

But I belive, that design "poor units, which you should blob/spam for to make them effective" is wrong design. 95% of comunity hates blobs and spams and forcing Relic to make such strategies weaker, look at Maxim.

So, with such desing USSR will be less and less powerfull, if that "anti-blob/spam" protests will continue. So, just put in T4 T-34-85 and SU-100. Simple, fast, effective.

Slight buff to MG. That's it.

This is an interesting idea, but let's think it through a bit.

First of all, I forgot to mention that:
- The DPS of T-34 MGs (Hull, Turret) is inferior to other medium tanks
- The T-34 cannot be upgraded with Pintle MGs (which can rotate almost instantly)

Having said that, DPS from MGs is inferior in many ways because:
- When moving, MGs suffer from both a moving accuracy penalty AND a burst length penalty (i.e., the T-34 will fire a short burst that will do jack-diddy to enemy troops)
- MG range is 35. This is equal to Panzerschreck range. At that point in the game when the T-34 comes out, I don't think it will end well for the T-34.
- Now, if you choose to suppress the Volks while dpsing them with the T-34 MG, guess what? Suppressed troops receive reduced accuracy bonuses (thus, your bullets won't hit them).
- If you choose to be running around like a maniac, the T-34 lacks pintle MGs which have easier time locking onto infantry.

I am aware that Miragefla proposed an MG DPS buff to T-34/76 for his mod. However, I am also aware that Volks Shrecks do not exist in his mod. Thus, in Miragefla's mod, the T-34 should have an easier time kiting infantry.