Let's talk about WM 1v1 balance (again)

So here we go again, with a nice replay showcasing why WM is utter shit in 1v1. I'm eager to see what the fanboys will argue with this time.

So we have the WM player doing everything correctly. Almost no RNG involved the whole game. WM survives early game with much trouble (as usual for WM, since the faction doesn't deserve to have proper core infantry). And we reach the mid - late game. Where USF is a real bad faction, right ?

Guess what ? USF wins with 1150 fuel in stock.

#BALANCE

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  2

  VS

  Kryptic

  .:PSG:. RedxWings

  Wehrmacht vs USF #BALANCE

  by: SlaYoU map: Minsk Pocket

  15

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A piece of of advice? Edit out the narcissistic aditude of yours if you want people to take you seriously. Uts fine to come on here to ask for help and all but lose the self entitle aditude.

RedxWings outplayed Kryptic by a huge margin in that game. he is really a great player.

Best flank
Best resource management
Best map presence

Kryptic didn't successfully take the advantage when he has it. He preferred send his Pz4 command tank one by one to dive in Redxwings base. And it is not like RW didn't offered him 2 or 3 times the game by doind some mistakes, losing 2/3 of his army 2 times.

Early game: RW goes for 2xRM + 2xRE + grenades + 1 early ambulance and manage to cap, flank and win engagement vs 2xGre 1xSniper 1xHMG and 2xPio...

Mid game, RW goes for full para support and the only response to that is building till 4 Pzgren, does Kryptic knows Para>Pzgren? No T3 in sign while RW didn't build any Tiers.

Late game, Finally Kryptic wakes up and build T3 and then, start gaining more map control, but still he spreads his troops everywhere and when finally build Ostwind, it is to send them to deathone after the other or by pack of 2 unsupported. Never try to flank, never try to trap. mine field and HMG? He doesn't, flammers to support infantry? Doesn't know, lost his sniper, no replacement just more Pzgren.

Oh, and don't be wrong, this time as many, YOU are the pathetic fanboy.

A piece of of advice? Edit out the narcissistic aditude of yours if you want people to take you seriously. Uts fine to come on here to ask for help and all but lose the self entitle aditude.

In fact i don't need help. WM does. But as usual, our brilliant forum watchmen have plenty of reasons to give. Nice try Esxile. Yet we have a top 50 player (RW) shitting on a top 100 player (Kryp) while floating 1150 fuel. Again i repeat, nice balance. I don't see the "outplay" portion of this game, tbh. Just a faction being so weak in the early game, having to spend everything in terms of ammo / fuel to even stay afloat against a non tiering non armoring player. No mines ? No HMG ? lol did you even watch the game ?

In fact i don't need help. WM does. But as usual, our brilliant forum watchmen have plenty of reasons to give. Nice try Esxile. Yet we have a top 50 player (RW) shitting on a top 100 player (Kryp) while floating 1150 fuel. Again i repeat, nice balance. I don't see the "outplay" portion of this game, tbh. Just a faction being so weak in the early game, having to spend everything in terms of ammo / fuel to even stay afloat against a non tiering non armoring player. No mines ? No HMG ? lol did you even watch the game ?

And what do you say when RedxWing Top50 with WM beat a Top100 USF player? Luck? You are really stupid in your fanboyism. If you don't see how RedxWing outplayed him till Kryptic finally decides to build T3, can't help you more, stay in you blindness crying wolves.

In fact i don't need help. WM does. But as usual, our brilliant forum watchmen have plenty of reasons to give. Nice try Esxile. Yet we have a top 50 player (RW) shitting on a top 100 player (Kryp) while floating 1150 fuel. Again i repeat, nice balance. I don't see the "outplay" portion of this game, tbh. Just a faction being so weak in the early game, having to spend everything in terms of ammo / fuel to even stay afloat against a non tiering non armoring player. No mines ? No HMG ? lol did you even watch the game ?

Ooooohhh so its not you, your not the problem, its the game's fault!? Well why didnt you say so cupcake, all even plea to relic to place you on spot 1 on the wer ladder because obviously that is also broken since you clearly deserve that spot.

In fact i see that you always have time to step in and defend the undefendable. Last time was Donnie being able to hold 40 wins vs WM when having lost 3-4 squads 15 mins into the game. Donnie posts and explains he was watching TV while playing, and you found plenty of reasons to justify the game (lol there goes the perfect argumentation).
Next game it was Jove, same exact scenario (so it wasn't a player skill issue). Now we have WM on the "perfect WM" map, that plays it rather well (see the nice sniper baiting into mine to get the greyhound gibbed in the early game), and gets pressured just enough by USF without tiers and armor, and now it is outplay again ? Remind me, what were the WM winrates in ESL ? No wonder the pro-scene of COH2 is gone now, i guess to never come back. If every "serious" game is decided by coin flip for faction choice, what's the point ? ESL should host a Roulette event, might be more interesting than this.

At least i'm not trying to hide my preference for Axis, unlike you with Allies.

Ooooohhh so its not your not the problem its the game's fault!? Well why didnt you say so cupcake, all even plea to relic to place you on spot 1 on the wer ladder because obviously that is also broken since you clearly deserve that spot.

I don't deserve anything mate, i'm just showing why WM is on the 1v1 shit-tier of this game. If anything, i admire people who still queue with the faction in 1v1s. This game (and those players) deserve better than this.

I think Ostheer is fine. The key to winning early game is MG42 usage, not grenadiers.

I think Ostheer is fine. The key to winning early game is MG42 usage, not grenadiers.

I trust your input more than Esxile's, did you by chance watch the game ? I'd be interested to hear from you on that matter, as i don't think Kryptic overused grenadiers, used MGs most of the game as well. He took a bit too long to tech, that's for sure, but again i don't think he would have been able to hold the map for so long if he invested his fuel earlier in his tiering. That's the Mobile Defense doctrine trap, over reliance on T1 and T2.

Remind me, what were the WM winrates in ESL ?

If didn't saw it on the front page, it was:
47% against SU
45% against USF
55% against UK
49% in total.

wm is fine, you cant spam any unit and rely on combined arms from early to late game.

all other factions are not fine

i honestly think this is true for atleast 9 months now so nothing new i guess

Think it's less WM being bad and more USF being too good

wm is fine, you cant spam any unit and rely on combined arms from early to late game.

all other factions are not fine

i honestly think this is true for atleast 9 months now so nothing new i guess

Tbh, it has been the case since WFA. I first uninstalled the game after giving a few months of time for Relic to actually fix the faction, gave it a one year or so break, then reinstalled to see that things are a lot better now (MG42 in T0), but still far from decent (rework of the heavies which was always the faction strong point). That's also why i am being active about this issue now, i don't plan to uninstall a second time. I just wish that games were balanced. The replay i uploaded in this thread is a thrilling game, with a lot of back and forth moves. I wish all games were balanced this way, and not roflstomps like they usually are (yet this replay is terrible because one player actually has to spend 100% of his ressources against the 40% of the other player). UKF is the only decent WM matchup, and UKF is also in the shit tier of 1v1s. That's like watching the special olympics and taking bets: it's unhealthy and sad at the same time.

I trust your input more than Esxile's, did you by chance watch the game ? I'd be interested to hear from you on that matter, as i don't think Kryptic overused grenadiers, used MGs most of the game as well. He took a bit too long to tech, that's for sure, but again i don't think he would have been able to hold the map for so long if he invested his fuel earlier in his tiering. That's the Mobile Defense doctrine trap, over reliance on T1 and T2.

Zooming through it now, this is a rough game to watch.



Early game Redwings sacrificed capping his only fuel in favour of pressuring Ostheer's cut off and getting vp pressure. He got grenades and an ambulance to maintain field presence. Basically what you're seeing here is a huge commitment to early game pressure from Redwings and because he has more stuff/better field presence he's able to maintain an economic lead and delay any teching that would otherwise be scary. (222 for example) The ostheer sniper is a good unit, but it's not well suited to this sort of situation because he has the smoke + reinforce combo that lets him pull back without retreating. Personally, I like a 2 HMG 2 Grenadier build against USF since it lets you wrestle early game map control from him. A 222 follow up is really solid as well. It's a bit weak on urban maps, but a map like Minsk it's extremely strong.

At 6 minutes Ostheer loses his machine gun to a grenade and a pioneer, but kills the ambulance with a grenadier flank and two fausts. Redwings still hasn't captured his fuel which is a huge blunder, honestly if he had just got out an AA halftrack the game would have been done by now.

Redwings fucked up by getting the m20, upgrading it with armour and then running over a teller mine. He also took way too much manpower bleed from that grenadier flank. Then he didn't get BARS right away, picking up a bazooka on the rear echelon and sitting on 80 munitions with +47/min. 1-2 BARS would have been a huge boon. Replacing the M8 was again silly.


Basically I think Redwings won the early game really hard because Ostheer chose to go for double pios and a sniper and lost the early game engagements hard. Redwings didn't play remotely optimally, but his early game gave him such a decisive lead. Compile that with the over-reliance on mobile defense doctrine call ins instead of traditional teching and Redwings finally getting weapons with his extreme munitions income and it created a situation where Ostheer had already lost but just wasn't dying. Game was decidedly done for Ostheer around 20 minutes and if Redwings had half a clue on how to economize (Get weapon upgrades at a timely fashion, tech up etc) he'd have finished it out way way sooner. If redwings had played better, he would have won in a quarter of the time.


It's a good example of an American player playing like shit and beating an Ostheer player, but I don't think Krpytic played particularly well either.

Thank you for taking the time to watch it, much appreciated.

I really like watching RedWings play. He often goes for a different approach. I remember one game he played Wehrmacht and choose the Elefant doctrine with hull down in it (can't remember the name). He won that one and it was just so refreshing not seeing meta.

Since I'm far from good in this game I won't say I have a real clue but I also find Wehrmacht is lacking something. Just small things like the survivability of Grens who often get wiped by tons of things, the survivability of the 251 Halftrack which I feel is a bit low for its price (I really like to use it but it often costs me the game, but idk if it's really a balance thing).

Maybe it's just that this faction needs more knowledge and micro then let's say OKW. I think the WFA factions are just a bit more easy to use to full potential.

I really like watching RedWings play. He often goes for a different approach. I remember one game he played Wehrmacht and choose the Elefant doctrine with hull down in it (can't remember the name). He won that one and it was just so refreshing not seeing meta.

Since I'm far from good in this game I won't say I have a real clue but I also find Wehrmacht is lacking something. Just small things like the survivability of Grens who often get wiped by tons of things, the survivability of the 251 Halftrack which I feel is a bit low for its price (I really like to use it but it often costs me the game, but idk if it's really a balance thing).

Maybe it's just that this faction needs more knowledge and micro then let's say OKW. I think the WFA factions are just a bit more easy to use to full potential.

lol yeh saw the same cast, a truly epic game!

he bumrushed a brummbar in the same game x)

WM is fine what it is now, it's just USF sometimes too good

Think it's less WM being bad and more USF being too good

Yep aside from some small tweaks, USF is the one that needs nerfs the most.