Jagdtiger Balance for 3v3+

The JT is a powerful TD with unmatched range and damage. It functions as a Pak43 on wheels and is extremely potent. However, in most small games sacrificing ~25% of your army to a single TD unit is risky. It can be done but has obvious counterplay as well. In larger team games this weakness is not reflected because it can be surrounded by potent AT and AI. As a result, the late-late game can lead to a feeling of inevitability for Allied players as they are slowly pushed back and lose.

The Allied counters for this unit are very limited. All Allied TD's must close the gap with the unit, and only the Firefly with tulips, can even hope to scare the unit from the front. Light vehicles can be destroyed by a single shell from the JT and so become extremely difficult to use after its arrival. The 17-pdr is outranged by the JT, and artillery is of limited concern because larger team modes will almost guarantee stuka dive bombs, or other off maps to nullify them. Reliance on AT guns is of limited use since in team games indirect fire is so plentiful in the late game they represent an MP sink, and not a reasonable threat.

Trading with the JT is extremely hard to do, its cost (800 MP, 290 Fuel) means that the lost of even 2 medium tanks in bringing it down puts the OKW player even or sometimes ahead of the loss. If the TD manages to kill any more and the deficit grows noticeably. The JT also comes in a doc with snares on front line infantry, making frontal assaults extremely risky. Smoke and flank is only somewhat useful, since in many cases the JT can sit in areas with extremely few approaches, and even use penetrating shells to ignore direct fire weapons entirely.

However, I think nerfs have to be creative to help retain the JT's potency in smaller team games. Here are some I propose, but I would like to hear other ideas that would balance it better for 3v3 and 4v4:

1) JT call-in cool down increased drastically (potentially up to 5-7 minutes or more)
2) JT range normalized to 17-pdr so it cannot outright counter a static unit

Point 1 forces players who lose the JT to build other forms of AT and so limit another JT appearance.
Point 2 provides the 17-pdr some actual use in team games where it currently is near useless whenever a JT is selected by the opposing team.

The JT is a powerful TD with unmatched range and damage. It functions as a Pak43 on wheels and is extremely potent. However, in most small games sacrificing ~25% of your army to a single TD unit is risky. It can be done but has obvious counterplay as well. In larger team games this weakness is not reflected because it can be surrounded by potent AT and AI. As a result, the late-late game can lead to a feeling of inevitability for Allied players as they are slowly pushed back and lose.

The Allied counters for this unit are very limited. All Allied TD's must close the gap with the unit, and only the Firefly with tulips, can even hope to scare the unit from the front. Light vehicles can be destroyed by a single shell from the JT and so become extremely difficult to use after its arrival. The 17-pdr is outranged by the JT, and artillery is of limited concern because larger team modes will almost guarantee stuka dive bombs, or other off maps to nullify them. Reliance on AT guns is of limited use since in team games indirect fire is so plentiful in the late game they represent an MP sink, and not a reasonable threat.

Trading with the JT is extremely hard to do, its cost (800 MP, 290 Fuel) means that the lost of even 2 medium tanks in bringing it down puts the OKW player even or sometimes ahead of the loss. If the TD manages to kill any more and the deficit grows noticeably. The JT also comes in a doc with snares on front line infantry, making frontal assaults extremely risky. Smoke and flank is only somewhat useful, since in many cases the JT can sit in areas with extremely few approaches, and even use penetrating shells to ignore direct fire weapons entirely.

However, I think nerfs have to be creative to help retain the JT's potency in smaller team games. Here are some I propose, but I would like to hear other ideas that would balance it better for 3v3 and 4v4:

1) JT call-in cool down increased drastically (potentially up to 5-7 minutes or more)
2) JT range normalized to 17-pdr so it cannot outright counter a static unit

Point 1 forces players who lose the JT to build other forms of AT and so limit another JT appearance.
Point 2 provides the 17-pdr some actual use in team games where it currently is near useless whenever a JT is selected by the opposing team.

Whole post about how strong the JT is, suggests increasing the cooldown time so that allies benefit more if it gets killed quickly...

I like how JT hardcounters 17 pounder emplacement.

That is all.

obviously you can't remember the pre-nerf jagdtiger

I like how JT hardcounters 17 pounder emplacement.

That is all.

This time Katitof is wrong.

JT should hardcounter it.

From Wikipedia:
"On 17 January 1945, two Jagdtigers used by XIV Corps engaged a bunker line in support of infantry near Auenheim. On 18 January, they attacked four secure bunkers at 1,000 meters. The armored cupola of one bunker burned out after two shots. A Sherman attacking in a counter-thrust was set afire by explosive shells. The total combat included 46 explosive shells and 10 anti-tank shells, with no losses to the Jagdtigers."

obviously you can't remember the pre-nerf jagdtiger

well how about pre-nerf elephant? self sighting, shooting through terrain and unblockables. It used to always be a rush for allies to prevent late game.

Jagdtiger is Pak44 (128mm) not Pak43 (88mm).

However, I think nerfs have to be creative to help retain the JT's potency in smaller team games. Here are some I propose, but I would like to hear other ideas that would balance it better for 3v3 and 4v4:

1) JT call-in cool down increased drastically (potentially up to 5-7 minutes or more)
2) JT range normalized to 17-pdr so it cannot outright counter a static unit

Point 1 forces players who lose the JT to build other forms of AT and so limit another JT appearance.
Point 2 provides the 17-pdr some actual use in team games where it currently is near useless whenever a JT is selected by the opposing team.

I'm confused by point 1. It would only be a concern for Axis players who lose their JT shortly after calling it in ... but in how many cases would they even have the resources to summon another one immediately afterwards? I think it would take at least 5-10 minutes to build your fuel stores up to 290 anyway, so what would this change achieve?

I like how JT hardcounters 17 pounder emplacement.

That is all.

Yeah I also like how a unit that is much more expensive, has a higher pop cap, can only have one on the field at a time, requires a lot of support and would have historically defiantly been able to hardcounter 17 pounder can hardcounter a 17 pounder in the game.

Whole post about how strong the JT is, suggests increasing the cooldown time so that allies benefit more if it gets killed quickly...

This response makes no sense to me, if a unit is too strong a nerf is in order. Changes I have suggested reward the player who manages to kill the unit and punishes the player who loses one recklessly.

This time Katitof is wrong.

JT should hardcounter it.

From Wikipedia:
"On 17 January 1945, two Jagdtigers used by XIV Corps engaged a bunker line in support of infantry near Auenheim. On 18 January, they attacked four secure bunkers at 1,000 meters. The armored cupola of one bunker burned out after two shots. A Sherman attacking in a counter-thrust was set afire by explosive shells. The total combat included 46 explosive shells and 10 anti-tank shells, with no losses to the Jagdtigers."

This comes up almost every time we talk about units, and I will say it again: Realism is not game play. If you want to play a realistic version of WWII look elsewhere. History inspires game play, it does not dictate it.

I'm confused by point 1. It would only be a concern for Axis players who lose their JT shortly after calling it in ... but in how many cases would they even have the resources to summon another one immediately afterwards? I think it would take at least 5-10 minutes to build your fuel stores up to 290 anyway, so what would this change achieve?

This is a fair point. My initial suggestion is probably low, possibly forcing a 10 minute cool-down would stress the uniqueness and importance of the unit. I am trying to make the unit harder to use, not prevent good play when in the right hands.

Jagdtiger is Pak44 (128mm) not Pak43 (88mm).

Note that I said: "It functions as a Pak43 on wheels..." not actually talking about caliber of gun here.

obviously you can't remember the pre-nerf jagdtiger

I do remember it and it was far too good. Right now though it can function in a similar manner because munitions income was increased but cost of piercing rounds was not. It also doesn't matter if the unit was OP before and is now currently slightly too strong. It still deserves attention.

May only allow 1 time call in? You wont be able to call in more than one jagdtiger in 1v1 anyway. In fact i cant remember seeing one in 1v1 or 2v2

Yeah I also like how a unit that is much more expensive, has a higher pop cap, can only have one on the field at a time, requires a lot of support and would have historically defiantly been able to hardcounter 17 pounder can hardcounter a 17 pounder in the game.

Historically, allies hardcounter axis by default
Lets make the game unwinnable for axis, because its the only logical way to go

Historically T34/76 wasn't inferior to P4.

I could go on and on and on on this, but we both know that game have nothing to do with how it was historically and how impotent that argument is.

May only allow 1 time call in? You wont be able to call in more than one jagdtiger in 1v1 anyway. In fact i cant remember seeing one in 1v1 or 2v2

This is my preferred as well, but Relic has clearly demonstrated a desire to remove 1-time call-ins. In all of COH2 there is only 1, and it was from a DLC commander that has received significant reworking and partially inspired the war spoils system.

This comes up almost every time we talk about units, and I will say it again: Realism is not game play. If you want to play a realistic version of WWII look elsewhere. History inspires game play, it does not dictate it.

Ok, if you don't want to have realism, then I have one good argument which is not based on historical accuracy. I think JT has an interesting function in this game by being a hardcounter to emplacements. The game is not so simple and boring, when one OKW commander has the JT, which can do this.

My counter to a well protected jagdtiger : Spam t-34 76 (2 or 3). Mark the armor, ram in it. Then try to approach it with AT, guards (they are very usefull to slow this sh**), TD (firefly, su-85, jackson ect ...).

If it's not enough, add a IL-2 bomb strike.

Results are, i am affraid, not always that efficient.

And sometimes, you took so much time to kill it, an other is called in.

So yeah, in team games, this unit is very frustrating.

The JT is a powerful TD with unmatched range and damage. It functions as a Pak43 on wheels and is extremely potent. However, in most small games sacrificing ~25% of your army to a single TD unit is risky. It can be done but has obvious counterplay as well. In larger team games this weakness is not reflected because it can be surrounded by potent AT and AI. As a result, the late-late game can lead to a feeling of inevitability for Allied players as they are slowly pushed back and lose.

The Allied counters for this unit are very limited. All Allied TD's must close the gap with the unit, and only the Firefly with tulips, can even hope to scare the unit from the front. Light vehicles can be destroyed by a single shell from the JT and so become extremely difficult to use after its arrival. The 17-pdr is outranged by the JT, and artillery is of limited concern because larger team modes will almost guarantee stuka dive bombs, or other off maps to nullify them. Reliance on AT guns is of limited use since in team games indirect fire is so plentiful in the late game they represent an MP sink, and not a reasonable threat.

Trading with the JT is extremely hard to do, its cost (800 MP, 290 Fuel) means that the lost of even 2 medium tanks in bringing it down puts the OKW player even or sometimes ahead of the loss. If the TD manages to kill any more and the deficit grows noticeably. The JT also comes in a doc with snares on front line infantry, making frontal assaults extremely risky. Smoke and flank is only somewhat useful, since in many cases the JT can sit in areas with extremely few approaches, and even use penetrating shells to ignore direct fire weapons entirely.

However, I think nerfs have to be creative to help retain the JT's potency in smaller team games. Here are some I propose, but I would like to hear other ideas that would balance it better for 3v3 and 4v4:

1) JT call-in cool down increased drastically (potentially up to 5-7 minutes or more)
2) JT range normalized to 17-pdr so it cannot outright counter a static unit

Point 1 forces players who lose the JT to build other forms of AT and so limit another JT appearance.
Point 2 provides the 17-pdr some actual use in team games where it currently is near useless whenever a JT is selected by the opposing team.

It's called asymmetric balance. JT is not supposed to be countered by a similar TD or so on. Allies and axis armies are different. what is the counter for JT? don't feed it frontal. When I play allies, to be honest, I'd be happy when I see my opponent get JT, cause I know he has invested to a big ass extremely slow Tank destroyer, so I can use my infantry, and support weapons more freely, he does not have KT, etc.
What was not balanced was the JT shooting through buildings. The only thing I don't agree is comparison of the reload rate of JT and FireFly which JT has a shorter reload time, that just doesn't make sense, even though FireFly has tulip.

The problem is in maps, not in JT.

The problem is in maps, not in JT.

Yeah, this is very true. On essen, this is a nightmare with much arty/ISG.

Historically, allies hardcounter axis by default
Lets make the game unwinnable for axis, because its the only logical way to go

Historically T34/76 wasn't inferior to P4.

I could go on and on and on on this, but we both know that game have nothing to do with how it was historically and how impotent that argument is.

Ok so if you don't think history should matter than what about the other things I said in my post like how it is more expensive,has a higher pop cap, you can only build one, it requires a lot of support to not be way in the back and one I forgot to mention was that it is doctrinal and 17 pounder is not so how about you talk about those instead of just picking one thing from my post and ignoring the rest.