AoE damage found too deadly to elite infantry.

It is my belief that the main issue with 'elite' infantry of all stripes, but most readily apparent with 4 man squads such as Grenadiers, PGs, and Obers, is their vulnerability to explosive damage (AoE).

In September 2015 there was a major change in how AoE damage was dealt. Instead of doing an accuracy roll, AoE damage was made to automatically hit, which makes judging and managing units dealing AoE damage much easier.

Unfortunately, a big part of 'elite' infantry is their received accuracy modifier (implemented through target size), which makes them harder to hit, and I believe this received accuracy modifier also applied to AoE damage prior to the September 2015 patch. After the 'always hits' change to AoE damage 'elite' infantry are now as vulnerable as regulars to AoE damage because their received accuracy modifier no longer has an reductive effect on AoE damage. They do retain their received accuracy (target size) advantages against small arms.

The effects are most obvious on 4 man units, which are much more likely to be wiped in 1 shot by AoE damage being smaller in number and closer spaced. Giving rise to the general impression Obers, Grens, and PGs are not as strong in use as they should be according to their stats.

I have not done the math on how damage is calculated, so I could be wrong. However if I am right, an easy fix would be to simply multiply AoE damage taken by infantry by their received accuracy (target size) modifier, which would restore some AoE damage resistance for 'elite' infantry, perhaps even alleviating the insta-wipe problems of 4-man units.

Joseph

The problem of wipes is in spacing. The fact that someone is "elite" doesn't mean he eats 82mm shells on breakfast. I think its all in the topic.

The problem of wipes is in spacing. The fact that someone is "elite" doesn't mean he eats 82mm shells on breakfast. I think its all in the topic.

No, but experienced infantry have a remarkable survival rate against all kinds of fire in comparison to green recruits. Knowing when to keep your head down makes all the difference when shrapnel is flying.

Joseph

I find most AOE units like brumm, PIV, sherman, dozer and even the ostwind useless.

No, but experienced infantry have a remarkable survival rate against all kinds of fire in comparison to green recruits. Knowing when to keep your head down makes all the difference when shrapnel is flying.

You'd think one would have to be an idiot to not, but most of us have never been shot at so there it is...

Problem with elite infrantry is awful unit movement in this game that makes them clump which means you lose your manpower investment very easily to stray howitzer shots and mines. Not as much a problem in vCOH because that game had no microfreezes, mines couldn't one-shot full-health squads, and units could actually be microed in general with lower unit latency and fewer predetermined cover spots.

Elite infantry need to have some sort of weakness, just like how in vCoH they would always get shot by snipers and received extra damage from flames.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the value of AoE weapon is to wipe out infantry blob regardless of them being cores or elites infantry.

Veterans DO know how to dodge and evade incoming fire but to survive a 105mm shell exploding within 2 meters one can only pray that he is from Krypton.

Blast Radius in this game is at least 5 times smaller than it in real world, so I think it's kind of acceptable

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the value of AoE weapon is to wipe out infantry blob regardless of them being cores or elites infantry.

Veterans DO know how to dodge and evade incoming fire but to survive a 105mm shell exploding within 2 meters one can only pray that he is from Krypton.

Blast Radius in this game is at least 5 times smaller than it in real world, so I think it's kind of acceptable

Infantry can't actually become like twice as hard and twice as deadly after the squad gets almost all killed and then reinforced repeatedly fighting for a half hour though

Which is why we got this complaint, they do in CoH2 and you kinda need them to.

The only thing that can be done is to change how the squad's formation is. Any other changes would simply end up in making an entirely new issue involving all explosive units rendered useless, and all elite units being, well... too elite.

The only thing that can be done is to change how the squad's formation is. Any other changes would simply end up in making an entirely new issue involving all explosive units rendered useless, and all elite units being, well... too elite.

Change received accuracy to received damage?

Change received accuracy to received damage?

With lelics track record of not screwing everything up? You would probably end up with infantry firing b4 shells instead of bullets if they tried something like that

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the value of AoE weapon is to wipe out infantry blob regardless of them being cores or elites infantry.

Veterans DO know how to dodge and evade incoming fire but to survive a 105mm shell exploding within 2 meters one can only pray that he is from Krypton.

Blast Radius in this game is at least 5 times smaller than it in real world, so I think it's kind of acceptable

If you think the blast radii are truncated, think of the weapon ranges. In real life the Sturmtiger had an effective firing range of 6 kilometers!

Joseph

Change received accuracy to received damage?

That is terrible idea if you've ever played with command P4 support and know how does that work.

I find most AOE units like brumm, PIV, sherman, dozer and even the ostwind useless.

Remarkable, as I believe the PIV, Sherman, and Ostwind are some of the better vehicles available to their respective factions for the cost. Especially if you have the rare reload bulletin for the medium tanks, which I believe is among the best bulletins in the game.

The Brummbar and Sherman Bulldozer are more situational, but I do love using the Brummbar when warranted, its quite enjoyable.

Joseph

Units like brumbarr and sherman dozer have largest aoe but they are useless, true. Big aoe isn't everything.

Its certainly an issue. Losing 400MP squads to a single shell is annoying as hell. No wonder people rather stick with cheaper infantries.

I think in case of some smaller sized infantries it would be wise to revert AOE change to roll against accuracy for each model.

Or calculate dynamical AOE with squad size included. Like this:
( Current AOE size / 5 ) * target squad size

Its certainly an issue. Losing 400MP squads to a single shell is annoying as hell. No wonder people rather stick with cheaper infantries.

I think in case of some smaller sized infantries it would be wise to revert AOE change to roll against accuracy for each model.

Or calculate dynamical AOE with squad size included. Like this:
( Current AOE size / 5 ) * target squad size

The main advantage of my suggestion is that received accuracy/target size is mostly a modest modifier. Where before a squad might be wiped, now several formerly full health members might be left with naught but a sliver, allowing a short-lived opportunity to retreat.

Joseph

Units like brumbarr and sherman dozer have largest aoe but they are useless, true. Big aoe isn't everything.

*Looks over to is-2 gunner in his fortress of empty vodka bottles*

*Looks over to is-2 gunner in his fortress of empty vodka bottles*

Hey you try shooting with a tank sober

Change received accuracy to received damage?

RA is far more likely to work as intended in all cases.

For example, when you change an RA modifier from 20% less to 20% less damage on a 80 unit while it gets shot at by 8 damage weapons, it goes from dying in 10 hits (80 / 8 = 10) to dying in 13 hits (80 / 6.4 = 12.5).

13 is 30% greater than 10 rather than 20%, thus in this case, the 20% damage modifier is far more effective than the 20% it would imply.

It couldn't work without units' requiring far more hits to die and largely eliminate the possibility for edge cases for specific weapons in total amount of hits to die.