Royal Engineers are broken

vetted Royal engineers can sometimes beat a SPIO. that says it all

Vetted SPIO can sometimes beat Commandos or Storms. That says it all :3

T2 unit is stronger then T0 starting unit.

More shocking news at 11.

WAAAAAY TOO POWERFUL, WAAAAAY TOOO POWERFUL



Please disable the balance forum FFS

T2 unit is stronger then T0 starting unit.

More shocking news at 11.

Ro.E. is a T1 unit...not T2

More shocking news at 11.

I started to play again 1vs1 and I admit I found it strange that vetted sturmpioneers with flamethrowers (Feuersturm Doctrine) weren't able to beat Royal Engineers. After playing more games I will make a final opinion but for now I believe they are overperforming for their cost.

An alternative suggestion is the following:
- Adjust the prices of Tommies & Sappers to reflect their 4-man squad performance (decrease in Tommy squad cost, increase in Sapper squad cost)
- When Boost Squads has been researched, new squads still arrive on the field as 4-man squads
- The player has the option whether to reinforce the fresh squad to full (5-man) or not
- Adjust veterancy/starting stats as needed

The benefit of going that way is that the Brit player will always be getting what they paid for, from start to finish. Hopefully that might make it easier to balance the faction.

The side-effects will the following:
- Takes some foreplanning away about when to research Squad Boost (however, I doubt anybody rushes that currently, anymore)
- Will make reinforcements in squad/team-weapons more consistent (due to a bug, Tommies still cost 35MP to reinforce when they are manning a gun)

vetted Royal engineers can sometimes beat a SPIO. that says it all

5 men Royal engineer squad beat the SPIO.

The Tommy/Sapper relationship is one the better designed parts of Brits though the execution leaves something to be desired.

They can't be directly compared to the t0 engies as they come put later & both ost and okw have non doc elites to mix into their infantry whereas UkF only have tommies/sappers all the way through. Even UKF doc gives specialised ambush elites which clearly aren't intended for mainline AI.

Quite frankly a mix of tommies/sappers is alot more fun then sappers being engies only and tommies getting spammed like rifles.

Tommies have so much broken stuff its not only funny.

Cover nerf is borked should only effect enfields.
Pyro upgrade is pointless.
Ukf main heal is on mailine infantry ?????
vet 3 enfields do nothing but mess with brens
nade is expensive and dosent mesh with lr nature of squads.
Hammer gives another nade that shares cooldowns - 3 nades on Pyro tommies ?????
Piats suck meaning a carrier isnt important.

Fix the above and the true state of tommies can be looked at.

Additionally royal engineers need to be tougher to help protect the positions they have built.

kek

T2 unit is stronger then T0 starting unit.

More shocking news at 11.

But the same rules can't apply to Obersoldaten right? Seeing as that is an axis unit and all.

Royal engineers overperform for their cost. Plain and simple. The fact that they are T1 doesn't change that.

Don't forget RE blob + Airlanding Officer just trash everything.

"vetted Royal engineers can sometimes beat a SPIO. that says it all


5 men Royal engineer squad beat the SPIO."


Only vet 0 scenario I could find where engineers beat Sturms is defending in green cover whilst the Sturms approach. Still close, Re would lose 3 or 4 models.

Sturms defending only lose a model, startng both in green Sturms win easily, starting both in no cover Sturms win easily etc...

Think this would tilt more towards the Sturms with vet applied.

But the same rules can't apply to Obersoldaten right? Seeing as that is an axis unit and all.

Royal engineers overperform for their cost. Plain and simple. The fact that they are T1 doesn't change that.

Well, if you drop 60 fuel and 120 muni worth of upgrades, then no, it doesn't.

Broken? Not really. (has REs spam become a thing, now, and I missed the memo?)

Overperforming for their cost? Definitely. However we need to make the following distinction:
- Their call-in cost is cheap for a 4-man squad, and dirt-cheap for a 5-man squad
- Their reinforcement cost is OK-ish (compare to other line infantry for instance)
- They cost the same-or-more popcap as other line infantry

However, before we go ahead and balance the only non-underperforming infantry of the Brits let's have a look at the bigger picture.

Spamming Tommies doesn't work; Tommies are a bit meh for their cost, and you will bleed heavily.

Spamming Sappers doesn't work either; sure, on 1v1 with other infantry, they are cost efficient. However, they have a very low range and can be cattle-prodded with MGs very easily.

You are meant to use both of them at the same time so that each unit's advantages covers the other unit's disadvantages.

Tommies

Tommies cost 280MP, and are probably priced with their 5-man version in mind.

For a 4-man squad, Tommies are extremely overpriced at 280MP. Part of that call-in premium goes towards:
- Tommies' received accuracy at Vet0 (-20%)
- Is probably meant to be recuperated by more cost-efficient units (Sappers).

Tommies, however, suffer from the following:
- Cover penalty
- Severe moving accuracy penalty
- Their Vet3 penalty bug (weapon pinatas)
- They scale well, but not as well as other infantry in the game (if you compare the bonuses)
- Part of the reason behind this scalability lag is that they already get some of the benefits at Vet0
- Unless you plan on blobbing your entire army, the faction design forces UKF to have at least 2 Tommies so that they get access to healing

I will leave it up to you to decide whether 280MP is a fair price for a 5-man Tommy squad.

Sappers

Sappers are very generously priced for a 4-man unit. Of course, this cost becomes insanely low considering that Sappers can become 5-man squads.

Their Vet0 reinforcement cost is not that bad. They cost 7/8 popcap and are meant to act as line infantry to cover up for Tommies' weaknesses.

The combat bonuses they get are at:
- Vet0 (0.8 reinforcement cost)
- Vet1 (Stens fire faster when in cover -- currently it's bugged and affects ALL weapons)
- Vet3 (Additional received accuracy bonus, Halved reinforcement cost)

Now:
1. Sappers cost equal/more popcap than other line infantry.
2. The Vet3 Reinforcement cost bonus is outright OP and needs to be thrown out immediately IMO (or moved to Conscripts)
3. The call-in cost could be adjusted to be fair. However, it would also be fair to adjust the Tommies' callin cost at the same time.
4. I don't know if one of the received accuracy bonuses needs to be reduced.
5. Alternatively, their Vet0 received accuracy bonus could be tied to a specific Veterancy tier.
6. However, this unit receives no offensive vet bonuses at all (apart from the recent bug).

Overall, as a line-infantry, Sappers get very tanky-kind-of veterancy. That, coupled with the Heavy Engineer upgrade makes them extremely difficult to eradicate. That is, until you figure out that you should be using grenades against them.

(Excluding the recent bug), none of the bonuses affects their offensive capability with equipped weapons. This means that you need Tommies to dish out the damage, and it probably makes sense to have Sappers to soak up the damage.

That's right. No matter how much munitions you sink into Sappers, Tommies will still be able to deal more damage with equal (or less) amount of munitions invested.

Provided that this is balanced, I think that's good design (as opposed to spamming Rifle-Rifle-Rifle or Volks-Volks-Volks)

Weapon teams

If we nerf Sappers, UKF will lack a low-reinforcement utility-only unit to reman weapon teams.

Currently, we have:
- USF has RE for 25MP-a-pop (a bit overnerfed) -- no special utility
- Soviets have Conscripts for 20-a-pop -- no special utility
- OKW has Volks for 25-a-pop -- no special utility
- OST has Pioneers (25-a-pop) or Osttruppen (20-a-pop) -- Pioneers have a passive sight bonus. Osttruppen reinforce very very very fast
- UKF has Sappers for 26-a-pop -- Sappers have a 0.8 received accuracy

(Btw, Vickers is also overpriced at 280MP. Shouldn't we also fix that too?)

Conclusions

1. The Sappers Vet3 reinforcement cost bonus (13MP) is ridiculously OP and needs to go.
2. Don't fix Sappers further unless you also plan on fixing Tommies too.
3. Otherwise, don't come here to complain when UKF starts spamming nothing but snipers and emplacements as their line infantry.

Sappers are amazing. In green cover they do huge damage with all there cooldown/reload buffs. Most cost efficient utility squad imo. I had them bring 4 man Spios down to 2 men on approach cuz I was in green cover.

Tommie's:
In 1v1s I can imagine they are fairly weak because of the reasons you described.

However, in team games they are amazing. Don't blob them, put the behind cover (that you can build) and let the enemy die as they approach you. Their long range DPS is amazing even without the extra man and brens. I always seem to float munis as Brits despite laying mines all game. I always get the medical supplies upgrade which allows you to prevent the heavy bleed you described. In green cover (where they should be) they take half damage from everything flame. This means if they can survive lots of engagements with zero casualties and heal up for free. The extra man helps them stay alive alot better as well. Compared to grens they are amazing.

Vs obers they struggle but that's what sniper is for. That or commando ambushes.

Best defensive unit, lacking in offensive power but (IMO) not the worst. Grens are the worst cuz they die fast and have only 4 model's.

Halfway through the game there's yellow cover everywhere anyways

Half damage to flames in green cover? If anything my Tommies get crisped twice as fact in green... That's flamethrowers or flame grenades, both of which are often spammed.

Bit confused about sappers bringing Sturms down on approach as sappers do next to no damage at range higher than 8m. Sturms don't do much either. When I tested it Tommies could only bring down 1 Sturm across red cover on approach, and then died quickly to them.

Well, if you drop 60 fuel and 120 muni worth of upgrades, then no, it doesn't.

I find that I'm quite often floating munis as Brits though. I'm not using grenades, and once my mines are down its just the initial weapon rack purchases left.

I'm always short of munis...

Pioneers and sappers

One of them have undoctrinal flamethrower upgrade that can kill infantry squad in building in 4 bursts.

You can upgrade sappers to heavy engeneers and 5 man but thats 35+50 fuel investment + 130-190 munition for lmg's + do their vet 1 cover bonus actually affect their lmg's?

They do not receive any combat bonuses until vet 3.

So OP, so broken, remove flamethrower from ost pioneers, they are too stronk for me.

Sten only, so with 3 LMGs you would gain a bonus for only one or two stens.