Royal Artillery + Sexton Balance

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Given its utility, the Valentine should not be buffed to the point that it becomes a very cost-efficient combat unit. However, its current state is pathetic (sure, the Valentine could lose its ability to crush infantry if it ever gets buffed).

Exactly that is why Radar valentine should be limited to 1 and then normal valentine can be buffed.

I have never fielded or fought against a Valentine horde before. However, I strongly suspect that a single medium tank would be enough to hardcounter the Valentine horde.

I have seen them being used and there are not that bad due to their high speed and smoke. They are very situational though...

Thus, if you try to aim a sexton barrage at range 532, your barrage area will look 4.2 times wider. However, even at 135 range, I still find that unit unusable.

Being able to fire into enemy base with impunity is not that bad...The problem again is that you need a vet 1 valentine which is hard to get....(see my suggestions)

distance_scatter_max will only cap vertical scatter. Horizontal scatter is an angle and has no cap.

According to the stats:
- The vertical scatter for both Priest and Sexton are capped at distance 124 (or 99 if firing into the FoW)
- Both units have a 5 degree angle horizontal scatter

Cruzz took the following picture of the scatter of a Sexton barrage at max range (135):


Thus, if you try to aim a sexton barrage at range 532, your barrage area will look 4.2 times wider. However, even at 135 range, I still find that unit unusable.

(PS: I haven't checked exactly which scatter stats are affected by the Vet2 bonus)



- The Valentine concentration barrage spawns a warning flare, which mimics off-map abilities.
- If you are firing at a concentration, you will have one shot landing every 8 seconds. This is enough time to clear the area (even if the enemy somehow missed the warning flare)
- If you are fielding more than one sexton (and a Valentine) to better use the ability, you probably don't have the popcap for anything else




The tradeoff here is that the Valentine costs a crapload of resources (for its combat performance), has low HP and its gun is comparable to the Bazooka. I have never fielded or fought against a Valentine horde before. However, I strongly suspect that a single medium tank would be enough to hardcounter the Valentine horde.

Given its utility, the Valentine should not be buffed to the point that it becomes a very cost-efficient combat unit. However, its current state is pathetic (sure, the Valentine could lose its ability to crush infantry if it ever gets buffed).

sexton scatter is horrible. even i use sexton at range of 40. 2/3 shells are no harm to enemy.

sexton scatter is horrible. even i use sexton at range of 40. 2/3 shells are no harm to enemy.

Scatter for Sexton is the same as the Priest:
D.S.Max 15.5
An. SC. 5
D.S.O 0.3
D.S.R 0.125

Scatter for LeFH
D.S.Max 18.5
An. SC. 9.25
D.S.O 0
D.S.R 0.074

So the Sexton tend to scatter more at distance and but almost half in angle it also scatter less in long ranges....

Scatter for Sexton is the same as the Priest:
D.S.Max 15.5
An. SC. 5
D.S.O 0.3
D.S.R 0.125

Scatter for LeFH
D.S.Max 18.5
An. SC. 9.25
D.S.O 0
D.S.R 0.074

So the Sexton tend to scatter more at distance and but almost half in angle it also scatter less in long ranges....

the meaning of D.S.R is vetical scatter. 0.125 ≈ 12.5 scatter angle so it's much bigger than LeFH.

you can see vetical scatter in this picture

Never claimed that Valentine has decent DPS...Ostheer scout Car is an armored car...

Again not really comparable to the AEC because it has more armor/HP and can crash Human. Scout car have lower armor and use wheels instead of trucks. If one want to compare it with something he should compare it to medium/light tanks

The 222 is a car with some light armour plates thrown on it. Even by name it isn't much more than a scout car:
Leichter Panzerspähwagen (German: roughly "light armoured reconnaissance vehicle")

The guy you originally replied to said it was worse than an armoured car - pretty much a reference to the AEC. And he's right, it is worse than an AEC for nearly any situation.

As for crush, well, I'll be honest I'm not a fan of the mechanic and don't think it should factor into the value of the unit in any way. The game is set in WW2 after all, and last I checked tanks weren't built to run infantry over. It's like having a battleship designed for ramming. The game won't be entirely historically accurate but at the very least it should get basic concepts like "tanks kill stuff by shooting at it". If I wanted pure fantasy I'd play something else.

That said, I do agree with you in some ways. The valentine/sexton synergy is probably holding both of them back and ultimately falls flat anyway. I suspect the Sexton's limited range is due to the valentine boost, and the valentine is kept poor because of the "synergy" with the sexton. Too bad that to get it to work to full effect you need 2 sextons and a vet 1 valentine. Good luck if you've spent that much pop cap on it.

The reason I posted the DPS stats is because I believe that's the heart of the problem with the Valentine. Its utility is good, no denying that - although I believe the smoke is harder to get firing than the Sherman's, but I'll have to test that again. I don't think the fog of war scanning necessitates being limited to 1, especially when OKW can do the same for much cheaper. The problem as I see it is simply that the Valentine is not combat capable - largely thanks to pathetic damage from the main gun.

So rant over for now, but I just want to make clear just how bad the Valentine's gun is.

the meaning of D.S.R is vetical scatter. 0.125 ≈ 12.5 scatter angle so it's much bigger than LeFH.

you can see vetical scatter in this picture

Think you are a bit confused...there are 2 type of scatter horizontal and vertical or angle and distance.

Horizontal affects how far to left and right the shots will land and Sexton is almost 2 times better than Lefh.

Vertical affect how far (or sort) the shots will land Lefh is better than Sexton up to certain range because vertical is capped and sexton has a lower cap....In addition one has better estimate vertical scatter since most times it tend to overshoot and not undershoot...

And as you can see in pic the Sexton has allot of scatter to distance and little in angle....

The 222 is a car with some light armour plates thrown on it. Even by name it isn't much more than a scout car:
Leichter Panzerspähwagen (German: roughly "light armoured reconnaissance vehicle")
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By definition 222 is an armored car...

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The guy you originally replied to said it was worse than an armoured car - pretty much a reference to the AEC. And he's right, it is worse than an AEC for nearly any situation.
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It would need its cost reduced by 75% to be just 'on par' with those changes. Its weaker than an armoured car.
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If he was referring to AEC he should have lower fuel reduction since AEC is 60 Fuel+ tech and Val is 80...
My point is that Val might have far less DPS but it has far more Armor, is a very good crusher and comparing these units is rather pointless since they have different roles, different DPs, different defensive stats.

As for crush, well, I'll be honest I'm not a fan of the mechanic and don't think it should factor into the value of the unit in any way. The game is set in WW2 after all, and last I checked tanks weren't built to run infantry over. It's like having a battleship designed for ramming. The game won't be entirely historically accurate but at the very least it should get basic concepts like "tanks kill stuff by shooting at it". If I wanted pure fantasy I'd play something else.

I am not a fun either especially because some units that tend to be good at it are designed with bad AI M10,Panther, Val...

You still have t34 designed to ram....on land instead of sea...

Glad we can agree on somethings

I don't think the fog of war scanning necessitates being limited to 1, especially when OKW can do the same for much cheaper. The problem as I see it is simply that the Valentine is not combat capable - largely thanks to pathetic damage from the main gun.

I did not actually suggested that Val should be limited to one. I proposed that Val turns more into a mini Cromwell and that it would have a upgrade in utility (maybe downgrade in combat stats) that would allow it to use the radar and concentration barrage...that would be limited to 1 similar to command vehicles upgrade.

What do you think of these changes?

- IS flare range increased from 20 to 40
- Sniper flare range increased from 30 to 50
- Coordinated Fire (Sniper/IS/Concentration Barrage) scatter angle reduced from 9.25 to 5.6
- Coordinated Fire (Sniper/IS/Concentration Barrage) max scatter reduced from 18.5 to 12
- Coordinated Fire (Sniper/IS/Concentration Barrage) gun rotation doubled (from 25 to 50)
- Coordinated Fire (Sniper/IS/Concentration Barrage) AOE increased to 8 from 6 with distances 2/4/6 from 1.5/3/4.5 (Now matches ML20)
- Sexton AOE increased from 6 to 7 with distance 2/4/6 from 1.5/3/4.5 (Now matches Priest)
- Sexton pop cost reduced from 14 to 10
- Sexton cost reduced from 375/90 to 340/80
- Valentine damage increased from 80 to 120
- Valentine pop cost reduced from 12 to 10

These would give the base UKF good mobile artillery in the Sniper and upgraded IS while improving the Royal Artillery Regiment.

Miragefla also converged to pretty similar ideas such as yours for his mod:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/h1bqidtqtcpvz9j/AACBA2kPuicj4xB_L7wDbHWta/competitive%20changelog%20british.txt?dl=0

What do you think of these changes?

- IS flare range increased from 20 to 40
- Sniper flare range increased from 30 to 50

The throwing range definitely needs to increase. There is no doubt about that. Currently, the ability feels unusable, and I find it very hard to justify upgrading a Tommy section with Pyro (and lose out the medkit upgrade). Instead, I could always go for a Sniper that can throw further and spot almost just as good.

- Coordinated Fire (Sniper/IS/Concentration Barrage) scatter angle reduced from 9.25 to 5.6
- Coordinated Fire (Sniper/IS/Concentration Barrage) max scatter reduced from 18.5 to 12

According to Relic bugfixes for 25 Feb, they did something to improve scatter, so that the ability doesn't completely suck for larger maps. They seem to have done something to cap horizontal scatter for this weapon as, currently, shots tend to land on the same postal code as you order them to.

Note, that if you are reading stats from the CoH2 Tools Attribute editor, it hasn't been kept up to date ever since 25 February (at least).

- Coordinated Fire (Sniper/IS/Concentration Barrage) gun rotation doubled (from 25 to 50)

That would definitely help a lot. Miragefla actually implemented an ability in his mod to let you pre-face howitzers, and it looks pretty wicked.

- Coordinated Fire (Sniper/IS/Concentration Barrage) AOE increased to 8 from 6 with distances 2/4/6 from 1.5/3/4.5 (Now matches ML20)

The AoE of the barrage could use a small buff to justify its price. That's one way to go. However this might turn howitzers into a better ML-20 (because you are unloading your barrage with two shots at the same time, instead of one).

- Sexton AOE increased from 6 to 7 with distance 2/4/6 from 1.5/3/4.5 (Now matches Priest)
- Sexton pop cost reduced from 14 to 10
- Sexton cost reduced from 375/90 to 340/80

With those changes, the Sexton will fire fewer shells than the Priest, and each shell will deal 20% less damage. If we consider that the Priest is in a balanced state (I'd say that it is), this might make the Sexton a bit OP for its price.
- Vs non-moving targets, you have the new & improved artillery call-in
- thus, you mostly the Sexton to really cover for the moving targets. In this case, only the first few shells have a chance to hit, anyway.

- Valentine damage increased from 80 to 120
- Valentine pop cost reduced from 12 to 10

I think that this buff might turn Valentine into a mini-Cromwell or a better-AEC-with-crush. I think I like what Miragefla does to improve Valentine's utility and improve its synergy with the Sexton:

Valentine Tank
Reduced its population and veterancy requirements as this is a support tank with only moderate combat effectiveness which made it difficult to gain veterancy.

-Population from 12 to 9.
-Veterancy from 1820/3640/7280 to 1400/2800/5600

-Valentine Sexton Supercharge Barrage no longer shares a cooldown with the main barrage.