If relic were to employ a fan, who would be the best pick?

As a player it's not worth defending Relic. They'll just as quickly knife you in the back all the while being faux pally pally with you.

Like when you leaked the patch notes on your dropbox??

All the people you seem to have issues with don't even work here anymore.

Like when you leaked the patch notes on your dropbox??

All the people you seem to have issues with don't even work here anymore.

Drizzy

Like when you leaked the patch notes on your dropbox??

All the people you seem to have issues with don't even work here anymore.

Replying to ragers wont make you any good, even more when you are a developer.

Edit: I know Penile was criticising Ciez originally, but personally I see more of Lemon defending Relic. You can see his post when replying to Whiteflash's comment in this thread which isn't constructive at all imo.

i replied because i thought it was humorous that someone would ask for the power to patch daily. who asks for that? like seriously? which game do you know patches DAILY

i replied because i thought it was humorous that someone would ask for the power to patch daily. who asks for that? like seriously? which game do you know patches DAILY

I would agree with you that daily patches are never a good idea (breaking replays and all that). I would assume he meant he could have an internal build which he could privately patch daily then release a final build later, although he wasn't very clear in his idea. I don't think brushing someone off that quick (especially a respected map designer) is ever a good idea. You generally want to add an argument to a differing opinion for healthy discussion... LMFAOing @ blatant trolls if fine though

Like when you leaked the patch notes on your dropbox??

All the people you seem to have issues with don't even work here anymore.

This response isn't healthy... You should already know IpKai already has very negative feelings towards Relic, so his views aren't going to change just because you have new staff members. (Which is biased in the opposite direction; see earlier post) Don't try to start a shit throwing contest by bringing up IpKai's bad behaviour, especially as a representative of Relic. I'm sure he'll respond with some of you and Relic's questionable behaviour which can very easily escalate.

I'm trying to be as objective here as possible, even though CoH 2 has just been ruined for me by the recent patches. Do I whine or start attacking you and Relic? No. Do I bring up some way I have been backstabbed by Relic? No. All I want is better and fixed game so I can enjoy it once again and people white knighting or trash talking Relic isn't going to help. Especially if Relic start firing shots at their fanbase. All I can do (and hopefully others) is give valid criticism and hope that you guys listen.

Like when you leaked the patch notes on your dropbox??

All the people you seem to have issues with don't even work here anymore.

Like I said back then it wasn't intentional, I stupidly had my phone on auto upload to my drop box account.

Just because certain people are gone doesn't really shift company policy. There are still issues with patch integration, community members who test the pre-release candidates get hung out to dry like last time. It's pretty much business as usual.

I do agree with IpKai, mostly of the time even with a 100% new workstaff, the same policy will survive if the management is the same. This could be good or wrong, but sometimes the policy needs some adjustments

Yea...i cant read that and not adress it. Im not about to make myself look like a rockstar, im not my gf will tell you im a moron half the time hah. I just want to contrast what "being a designer" and designing a system is like and shed some light on the idea that its just SO DIFFICULT to get this game right.

So i work as an aerospace engineer putting stuff up to the space station in RL. Its very hard. The engineering is hard, the design is hard, the entire process is a bitch. But its very doable if you think through your designs from start to finish, have defined goals, use insightful engineering judgment and rely on empirical evidence and talk to experts in the field to come to conclusions, then move forward with choices that you make to complete the mission. This typically takes under a year to do for a given mission.

Now I come to Relic, a company that has been making seriously kickass RTS games since the 90's and has been working with COH games for a decade now. There is no excuse to have a game like company of heroes 2 with a map pool list that is jumbled (wait for a ladder match look at the map pool list on the right, jesus christ it looks like JUMBLED UNORGANIZED crap). There is no excuse to have the level of glitches in the game that we experienced recently when a patch comes out (quality control??). There is no excuse to have a map pool that STILL isnt up to par for an Esports level competition (1v1 2v2), and there is no excuse for some of the choices that have been made in the past with regards to system design. I will reference this for the 1000th time. https://www.coh2.org/topic/11064/commander-overlap-a-serious-problem

COH is an inherently complex game, which is one reason its great, and yes it is hard to get balance JUST right, that should be ongoing (it must be Esportsable)...but there are times when issues are so glaring and obviously hindering the experience of COH that i wonder where the quality control is, when a balance decision is made, and i wonder if they even have a dedicated mapper at Relic to get the maps where they should be (a critical component to multiplayer COH that always gets overlooked, imagine if all the maps sucked even if balance was perfect how awful would COH2 be). And i understand Relic is working on things, i have no doubt. But to suggest that its SO HARD that these things just cant be done in THREE YEARS, to me, is an absurd claim.

I wonder if serious effort is put in to polishing the menu interface, supporting Esports and taking EDUCATED feedback from groups of experts in different fields of COH (mapping modding balance) because taking feedback from random people is a waste of time money and effort on Relics part. If I, an aerospace engineer, took feedback on how to design something from some jackass on the street who doesnt know anything about engineering, WHY would Relic, a game design company, take advice from a non-expert on ANY aspect of coh when it comes to something like balance or mapping....THEY SHOULDENT. Taking public advice on features and things makes sense. In the cases im talking about, it makes no sense. And hurts the entire community.

In conclusion it is NOT this task that is so hard that its acceptable to see the game where it is.

Between HOMEWORLD and COH ive spent thousands of hours on them mapping and playing. But this is my PLEE to get yourself together. COH2 could beat the shit out of games like SC2 if the right direction was taken. DO IT!

-Love WhiteFlashReborn

+1000

Yea...i cant read that and not adress it. Im not about to make myself look like a rockstar, im not my gf will tell you im a moron half the time hah. I just want to contrast what "being a designer" and designing a system is like and shed some light on the idea that its just SO DIFFICULT to get this game right.

So i work as an aerospace engineer putting stuff up to the space station in RL. Its very hard. The engineering is hard, the design is hard, the entire process is a bitch. But its very doable if you think through your designs from start to finish, have defined goals, use insightful engineering judgment and rely on empirical evidence and talk to experts in the field to come to conclusions, then move forward with choices that you make to complete the mission. This typically takes under a year to do for a given mission.

Now I come to Relic, a company that has been making seriously kickass RTS games since the 90's and has been working with COH games for a decade now. There is no excuse to have a game like company of heroes 2 with a map pool list that is jumbled (wait for a ladder match look at the map pool list on the right, jesus christ it looks like JUMBLED UNORGANIZED crap). There is no excuse to have the level of glitches in the game that we experienced recently when a patch comes out (quality control??). There is no excuse to have a map pool that STILL isnt up to par for an Esports level competition (1v1 2v2), and there is no excuse for some of the choices that have been made in the past with regards to system design. I will reference this for the 1000th time. https://www.coh2.org/topic/11064/commander-overlap-a-serious-problem

COH is an inherently complex game, which is one reason its great, and yes it is hard to get balance JUST right, that should be ongoing (it must be Esportsable)...but there are times when issues are so glaring and obviously hindering the experience of COH that i wonder where the quality control is, when a balance decision is made, and i wonder if they even have a dedicated mapper at Relic to get the maps where they should be (a critical component to multiplayer COH that always gets overlooked, imagine if all the maps sucked even if balance was perfect how awful would COH2 be). And i understand Relic is working on things, i have no doubt. But to suggest that its SO HARD that these things just cant be done in THREE YEARS, to me, is an absurd claim.

I wonder if serious effort is put in to polishing the menu interface, supporting Esports and taking EDUCATED feedback from groups of experts in different fields of COH (mapping modding balance) because taking feedback from random people is a waste of time money and effort on Relics part. If I, an aerospace engineer, took feedback on how to design something from some jackass on the street who doesnt know anything about engineering, WHY would Relic, a game design company, take advice from a non-expert on ANY aspect of coh when it comes to something like balance or mapping....THEY SHOULDENT. Taking public advice on features and things makes sense. In the cases im talking about, it makes no sense. And hurts the entire community.

In conclusion it is NOT this task that is so hard that its acceptable to see the game where it is.

Between HOMEWORLD and COH ive spent thousands of hours on them mapping and playing. But this is my PLEE to get yourself together. COH2 could beat the shit out of games like SC2 if the right direction was taken. DO IT!

-Love WhiteFlashReborn

I agree with you in a part about bugs and broken mechanics. 3-4 years is more than enough to optimize your code and game engine. I am still laughing, when GTA V or WarThunder on my computer working with stable 60 FPS, and CoH 2 give from 20 FPS to 60 FPS. It's insane!
I also can add, that old faction have a terrible vehicle models, icons, doctrines and many useless stuff, but this is offtopic

P.S. Daily patches is a real bad shit.

Hi all,

how come almost every thread in the last year derails into a "relic is stupid... etc"-crap.
Yes, they messed up last patch ( very badly) and everybody who is already a hard-core Relic critic went overboard. Now everybody thinks, he is entitled to make a list of demands, which results in absurd demand of for example daily patches. Honestly nobody is entitled to anything. If you do not like relics products do not buy them, if you do not like coh2 do not play it. It is easy as that.

Relic will not optimize the game, i think that is stupid too, but it probably is just not cost efficient. The game is on sale all the time, they wont earn money with the game anymore. It may suck but it is a business decicion.

I honestly hope, that relic will learn a few things from coh2 for next products like coh3 and dow3 and have e-sports (optimization, multi player issues) and modders in mind, because even if they are no doubt a minority, they are a very vocal minority and they keep the game alive.

Best Regards
awa59noob

Yea...i cant read that and not adress it. Im not about to make myself look like a rockstar, im not my gf will tell you im a moron half the time hah. I just want to contrast what "being a designer" and designing a system is like and shed some light on the idea that its just SO DIFFICULT to get this game right.

So i work as an aerospace engineer putting stuff up to the space station in RL. Its very hard.

Im gonna take a shot at the dark and suggest the budget for the ISS is a tiny fraction larger than the budget for a computer game.


What you need for software development not to have unforeseen consequences in patching [any type of patching, even just swapping NTP servers FQDN can cause the most fucked up of issues, because some guy that quit 5 years ago had the old FQDN hardcoded in some line of code] is solid and consistent documentation. Something that by tradition in software development is notoriously bad. Only I remember that had their documentation game on point was the armed forces, but they have the money to spend.

There is several of instances were code uploaded to github have had variables such as
"username: admin"
"Password: Password123"
in the code.
Now cock-ups that will NEVER happen for anything related to god damn Space development or national security. Since they have the infrastructure and systems in place to prevent such things. But that effort is expensive currently very few people do that. Patreon leak anyone?

The difference between your business and private-government or government-government type contracts vs business - enduser type companies is huge.

I would agree with you that daily patches are never a good idea (breaking replays and all that). I would assume he meant he could have an internal build which he could privately patch daily then release a final build later, although he wasn't very clear in his idea. I don't think brushing someone off that quick (especially a respected map designer) is ever a good idea. You generally want to add an argument to a differing opinion for healthy discussion... LMFAOing @ blatant trolls if fine though

Patching / updating maps daily could be possible.

patching daily is retarded. im asking for the ABILITY to patch daily so if we NEED a patch we arent waiting months for something that is a glaring problem and should be fixed asap. problems tend to compound if you leave them waiting for a big patch in a month, and large patches are unpredictable in the way it affects the game. weve all seen this, its old news

bad sentence structure on my part from the earlier post giving the wrong impression about patching daily. my bad.

Oh and someone complained about ISS budget being "big" so thats an excuse to burn 3 years and not have COH2 up to where it should be? i understand coh2 was designed under THQ and was released under bad circumstances, i totally give relic 1 year of free time because that had to suck.

But to suggest that 3 years later the same situation applies and there just isnt enough time or money to get the job done right. you could hand the game to 6 people from the community and if you picked the right people they would have the game in fantastic shape in under 6 months no problem.

Have a goal and drive hard to it. Relic has no goals, and if you dont have a target you will never hit it.

Make ESPORTS the goal and drive to the hoop Relic, id support you 100%, hell id fix 1v1 2v2 maps again (ive worked with you guys many times in the past on map fixes). If you picked mappers that are 100% competitively focused there are others you could employ, but DO NOT bring in random guys who work on 4v4 maps and dont understand what it takes to make a real competitive map. Rapid turnaround for map deployment and map fixes in ladder is a MUST to refine the map pool to where it needs to be. This is 9 years of mapping experience talking. https://www.coh2.org/guides/5478/worldbuilding-with-whiteflash

Dont release commanders, dont release more campaigns, dont work on anything that doesnt specifically address the Esportsability of the game (i appreciate the small esports stuff that is started fyi. but the game is still in disarray.)

-Love WhiteFlashReborn

@WhiteFlash pathing is a little bit more then changing few numbers in random documents and clicking "replace".

These things have to be built by developers, which takes time, tested and approved by QA, which takes time.

Unless you mean some really minor changes, patching workflow takes a while and usually is scheduled in advance instead of rushing yolo changes.

At least that is how it should be at the end.

@WhiteFlash pathing is a little bit more then changing few numbers in random documents and clicking "replace".

These things have to be built by developers, which takes time, tested and approved by QA, which takes time.

Unless you mean some really minor changes, patching workflow takes a while and usually is scheduled in advance instead of rushing yolo changes.

At least that is how it should be at the end.

true. but it should take a week to release a patch if its needed not a month or months.

true. but it should take a week to release a patch if its needed not a month or months.

That really depends on the patch content and the amount of changes that needs to be made, documented, given to QA for tests and so on.

For a proper patch with medium sized changes, I'd say 2-3 weeks. If issues are being found on the way it may take longer then that.

That really depends on the patch content and the amount of changes that needs to be made, documented, given to QA for tests and so on.

For a proper patch with medium sized changes, I'd say 2-3 weeks. If issues are being found on the way it may take longer then that.

based on the dozens and dozens independent game developers releasing patches weekly, i dont buy that.

obviously if there was some big problem discovered it would take time to fix but here we are three years later should there be big problems persisting at this point? no.

Like when you leaked the patch notes on your dropbox??

All the people you seem to have issues with don't even work here anymore.

That kind of reply is rather toxic, and certainly not healthy for a good communication between community and Relic itself. Please let Kyle and cuddletronic do all the work with the community, you seem to be rather aggressive and intolerable (as demonstrated countless times every time you appear on twitch, or even troll here in the forums).

Well, independent developers work on a slightly different workflow then bigger studios.

It also verries from game to game, 7 days 2 die is independent game and it takes them weeks to months to patch, Project Zomboid is independent game and if it have 2 patches a year I consider it a success, then we have fuckload of minecraft clones and "terraria with different skin" kind of crap.

No one will convince me that adding new block to minecraft is equally "hard" as adding new asset to game like CoH.

Patching process varies greatly from game to game, I'm trying to compare CoH2 to projects of similar scale at my company and give a rough estimates of what it might look like for coh based on that.

Bottom line is, it takes time to both, implementing any new asset and calculate, implement and QA gameplay balance related changes.

Regarding big progress on older games, let me point you at WoW or PS2 alone, neither is a new game and both have problems of considerable size. Every single WoW update was bug and exploit fest so far for example.

Hell, I've seen features that worked fine for a year without mandatory maintenances, which turned out to be bugged at the end. So yeah, age of the game isn't really related to frequency of big issues-difference lies in how you handle them and how transparent are you with the community about it.

Game design isn't rocket science, everyone willing could learn it.

Game development on the other hand, no matter how good you are, things can always go wrong, because fuck you, even if they were working fine for the past X years. I've seen that first hand many times and not only with my projects.