If relic were to employ a fan, who would be the best pick?

Well, independent developers work on a slightly different workflow then bigger studios.

It also verries from game to game, 7 days 2 die is independent game and it takes them weeks to months to patch, Project Zomboid is independent game and if it have 2 patches a year I consider it a success, then we have fuckload of minecraft clones and "terraria with different skin" kind of crap.

No one will convince me that adding new block to minecraft is equally "hard" as adding new asset to game like CoH.

Patching process varies greatly from game to game, I'm trying to compare CoH2 to projects of similar scale at my company and give a rough estimates of what it might look like for coh based on that.

Bottom line is, it takes time to both, implementing any new asset and calculate, implement and QA gameplay balance related changes.

Regarding big progress on older games, let me point you at WoW or PS2 alone, neither is a new game and both have problems of considerable size. Every single WoW update was bug and exploit fest so far for example.

Hell, I've seen features that worked fine for a year without mandatory maintenances, which turned out to be bugged at the end. So yeah, age of the game isn't really related to frequency of big issues-difference lies in how you handle them and how transparent are you with the community about it.

i want to see how long it takes to do each segment of the process and why each segment takes that long. id give a week, i wouldent give more than a week, again this is for something like; we found that this unit is way overperforming, we need to nerf it to have stats of XY and Z. if that is the ONLY thing you intend to do to move the game closer to esportsability. use that example to illustrate why it would take 3 weeks.

Hi all,

how come almost every thread in the last year derails into a "relic is stupid... etc"-crap.
Yes, they messed up last patch ( very badly) and everybody who is already a hard-core Relic critic went overboard. Now everybody thinks, he is entitled to make a list of demands, which results in absurd demand of for example daily patches. Honestly nobody is entitled to anything. If you do not like relics products do not buy them, if you do not like coh2 do not play it. It is easy as that.

Relic will not optimize the game, i think that is stupid too, but it probably is just not cost efficient. The game is on sale all the time, they wont earn money with the game anymore. It may suck but it is a business decicion.

I honestly hope, that relic will learn a few things from coh2 for next products like coh3 and dow3 and have e-sports (optimization, multi player issues) and modders in mind, because even if they are no doubt a minority, they are a very vocal minority and they keep the game alive.

Best Regards
awa59noob

Also very true.

i want to see how long it takes to do each segment of the process and why each segment takes that long. id give a week, i wouldent give more than a week, again this is for something like; we found that this unit is way overperforming, we need to nerf it to have stats of XY and Z. if that is the ONLY thing you intend to do to move the game closer to esportsability. use that example to illustrate why it would take 3 weeks.

And as I've said, for a singular changes to singular units it might be couple of days at best.
Relic even have done that in the past, although it wasn't related to units performance, but the cost(AGs at release anyone?).
With more changes, the process takes exponentially longer.

@WhiteFlash What I stated before is the common problem in almost all software development on the level of CoH. It doesn't affect independent devs when the guy(s) who wrote the actual blocks of code from scratch try to change it.


The current problems with Veterancy is engine related apparently. That engine was written several years ago and I bet non of the people who wrote the original lines are still around.
And if Relic is like 96% of the Software developing world documentation is lacking or non-existent. Probably the latter.

I don't know how Relics code is working I'm not a coder I just work in the industry and it is always a major bitch with any application/system older than 2 years cocks up for some reason because the guys who wrote it quit and when his/her replacements are trying to fix it they always mess something else up.

@WhiteFlash What I stated before is the common problem in almost all software development on the level of CoH. It doesn't affect independent devs when the guy(s) who wrote the actual blocks of code from scratch try to change it.


The current problems with Veterancy is engine related apparently. That engine was written several years ago and I bet non of the people who wrote the original lines are still around.
And if Relic is like 96% of the Software developing world documentation is lacking or non-existent. Probably the latter.

I don't know how Relics code is working I'm not a coder I just work in the industry and it is always a major bitch with any application/system older than 2 years cocks up for some reason because the guys who wrote it quit and when his/her replacements are trying to fix it they always mess something else up.

"if Relic is like 96% of the Software developing world documentation is lacking or non-existent"

If this is the case, and it very well could be, i sympothise with paperwork nightmares I would say as an engineer who deals with mountains of paperwork every day and still gets the job done i would say...

Start documenting how your own game code works I cant beleive i have to say this to a company thats been around for over a decade but yea this should be a no brainer, if a company plans on a life span of a game of 10+ years it better have documentation for the future of the game, this should be on their bucket list DAY 1 of development.

If management is the problem, if your statement is at the core of the lack of quality in COH2 (i dont think its the core, but its most likely a part of it) then so be it, just so damn sad seeing so much potential in disarray.

If mirage is employed he would turn off life support for axis.

"if Relic is like 96% of the Software developing world documentation is lacking or non-existent"

If this is the case, and it very well could be, i sympothise with paperwork nightmares I would say as an engineer who deals with mountains of paperwork every day and still gets the job done i would say...

Start documenting how your own game code works I cant beleive i have to say this to a company thats been around for over a decade but yea this should be a no brainer, if a company plans on a life span of a game of 10+ years it better have documentation for the future of the game, this should be on their bucket list DAY 1 of development.

If management is the problem, if your statement is at the core of the lack of quality in COH2 (i dont think its the core, but its most likely a part of it) then so be it, just so damn sad seeing so much potential in disarray.

Its sad but that has become an industry standard in IT. Not saying it is good or how it should be just how it is.

I just think that anyone defending them at this point is obviously biased towards them. They've just screwed up way too many times with patches and DLC releases and never seem to learn anything from it. A professional, efficient and competent dev team (or any team in any industry) would never release products/patches the way Relic do. I assume Sega isn't doing them any favours as well.

I will add though, they have somewhat improved their community interaction which is a small compliment i'll give them. However, they even mess up when talking to the fans; as you can see by Kyle's latest blog post. According to the dev Cuddletronic, the vet bug has not been in the game since launch but according to Kyle (or whoever gave him the draft for the blog) it has... Furthermore, patch notes are always lackluster in details, (sometimes even containing glaring typos) usually not explaining how they are changing the unit/ability making the players do a lot of guesswork.

Relic isnt the best at managing this game. Agreed. On the other hand, I don't believe you need to be biased towards relic to support their decisions though. I personally prefer to look at the good things relic has done rather than the bad. I believe relic needs more positive feedback on things they are doing right rather than what they're doing wrong.

I believe relic needs more positive feedback on things they are doing right rather than what they're doing wrong.

Constructive feedback is always good. (negative feedback) If its presented well and has validity to it, with agreement from other experts in whatever field your presenting (modding mapping balance)

But your 100% right i agree and im guilty of this too, Relic doesnt get enough positive feedback. If they did they might not change things that DONT need changing as much, i honestly dont know.

Relic you did a kickass job setting up automatic map integration into COH2. No question there.

Having said that i stand by the whole 3 years wtf scenario that has played out.

Constructive feedback is always good. (negative feedback) If its presented well and has validity to it, with agreement from other experts in whatever field your presenting (modding mapping balance)

But your 100% right i agree and im guilty of this too, Relic doesnt get enough positive feedback. If they did they might not change things that DONT need changing as much, i honestly dont know.

Relic you did a kickass job setting up automatic map integration into COH2. No question there.

Having said that i stand by the whole 3 years wtf scenario that has played out.

I completely agree with you. Constructive feedback is always good. I think the key word that keeps getting ignored on this forum is "constructive".

I didn't want to work at Relic until I realized that Donald Trump could be my president and now I really want to move to Canada

I completely agree with you. Constructive feedback is always good. I think the key word that keeps getting ignored on this forum is "constructive".

One problem is when constructive feedback is posted, and the entire community backs the ideas in a big way. Relic still doesnt take notice. For the 10000th time i will refer to this. https://www.coh2.org/topic/11064/commander-overlap-a-serious-problem

EDIT: and after playing coh for this long i could refine the hell out of that original post to flesh that out to be much better than the original. but again, relic shows no interest so why would anyone put effort in

They can always go okw style and savage stuff from the previous game, i have seen mods that included things from coh1, like those real trenches

One problem is when constructive feedback is posted, and the entire community backs the ideas in a big way. Relic still doesnt take notice. For the 10000th time i will refer to this. https://www.coh2.org/topic/11064/commander-overlap-a-serious-problem

EDIT: and after playing coh for this long i could refine the hell out of that original post to flesh that out to be much better than the original. but again, relic shows no interest so why would anyone put effort in

Ideas is always good on paper. I suggest you make a mod similar to Europe in Ruin for either CoH1 or CoH2, and then let Relic play it. That will actually make them think again.

But if all you can do is just writing out, then you can expect Relic might use your idea in future version at best, and completely ignoring your idea at worst.

Yep, they are not your slave, they are normal human as you are.

Ideas is always good on paper. I suggest you make a mod similar to Europe in Ruin for either CoH1 or CoH2, and then let Relic play it. That will actually make them think again.

But if all you can do is just writing out, then you can expect Relic might use your idea in future version at best, and completely ignoring your idea at worst.

Yep, they are not your slave, they are normal human as you are.

i am indeed a normal human, and they arent anyones slave that im aware of. thanks for that one.

making a mod to flesh out the best design for coh2 would only splinter the community more, thats not the way to build an esports scene.

im not the only one to come to relic with genuine improvements to the game that the entire community supports and would benifit everyone. im just using what i came up with as an example because i am the most familiar with that concept.

As more of a forum lurker than poster, I do agree with Penile here... You and Lemon are very vocal posters on coh2.org and sometimes that's a positive thing against trolls and people who are unaware of relic announcements/news. However, recently I've seen you (and Lemon) defend relic with their latest patch on your streams and telling everyone to just relax when people start criticising Relic for they're shoddy updates or behaviour which does show a bias on your side. At this point I feel Relic should be heavily criticised as I can't even remember the last time they introduced a patch which didn't have a bug or balance problem. Personally, I've taken a break from CoH 2 after the Feb patch broke all infantry vet as I was sick and tired of the incompetence coming out of the devs (good timing too as I just started university). Even though Penile can sometimes be extreme in his views, some of which I don't agree with, I don't think you should completely disregard his opinions if he's trying to be constructive or making valid points.

In the end, I do respect you and I do enjoy watching you play as you're quite a good player. I can have a good laugh when I'm watching your streams but when I see you defending Relic at this point of the game, I get the impression that there's a bit of 'white knighting' going on.

P.S I do understand why you wouldn't want to be too critical of Relic though since you're close to the devs and don't want to ruin your relationship with them.

Edit: I know Penile was criticising Ciez originally, but personally I see more of Lemon defending Relic. You can see his post when replying to Whiteflash's comment in this thread which isn't constructive at all imo.

+1 for all posts here.

Show Spoiler

But why not me BibleThump.
Only guys from RTN and only one from Europe (where are best players of this game, almost). Thay are good guys (some of them are really axis fanoboys MVGame), but coh its like politic, relic should use some of allies fanboys consult ). But its explain why some of this guys defend Relic like mother kid.
No insult guys, just to voice opinion.

Put me in coach, I'm ready

Relic isnt the best at managing this game. Agreed. On the other hand, I don't believe you need to be biased towards relic to support their decisions though. I personally prefer to look at the good things relic has done rather than the bad. I believe relic needs more positive feedback on things they are doing right rather than what they're doing wrong.

Imo, bias is never a good thing as it will always cloud your judgement against someone/something. Customer loyalty and support is always a good thing as long as it's not blind. I remember back when Relic were releasing the Brits, (up to that point they were improving) I wanted to pay for the extra DLCs and skins to support Relic. Now to be honest, they can go fly a kite lol. There is very little Relic is doing right at the moment. (ESL and community interaction are two positives I can think of) You'll notice though, most of these positives aren't even to improve the base game. Funnily enough, even goals like reducing call in meta several months back wasn't that effective as a lot of soviet metas will rely on KV 8s and IS 2s. (although call ins have improved with Wehrmacht and USF) I've actually switched to DoW 2 Elite mod and there's so many ideas Relic could pull from it. E.g nuke abilities require you to tech as well as some of the call in units.

Maybe I'm just a bit pessimistic, I'm quite sad my favourite game of all time has been ruined for me. I like to think I'm not biased. Dota 2 used to be my game of choice with 1454 hours accumulated. However, I switched to CoH 2 after the USF was released. Now I have 1168 hours of CoH 2 in about half the time period I played Dota 2. Even though Dota 2 is balanced waaaayyyy better than CoH 2, with P2W being non-existent, CoH 2 is just a more exciting game to play in my opinion.

If Relic's focus was actually fixing the game's engine and doing small balance adjustments, instead of this shitty DLC and and patches we're getting, I think they would make more money. People would want to buy skins, faceplates and decals to customize their army and support Relic's good behaviour (I know I would). However, they would have to get more artists working on these cosmetics but I'd say it would be less work than trying to balance new commanders which pulls away balance from the core units. It would simply lead to a better game.

Edit: Going back to Dota 2, I wanted to add that I've probably spent around $60+ on cosmetics and compendiums(which are basically 'interactive tickets' to the Dota Internationals). So I've pretty much spent full price on a game that's free. I don't regret it as Dota 2 was constantly improving with incredibly few hiccups when they introduced new heroes. Can you believe a game with 111 heroes is more balanced than a game with about 40+ commanders? Also DoW 2 Elite has 7 factions (these can be mirrored) which are asymmetrically better balanced than the 5 CoH 2 has.

One problem is when constructive feedback is posted, and the entire community backs the ideas in a big way. Relic still doesnt take notice. For the 10000th time i will refer to this. https://www.coh2.org/topic/11064/commander-overlap-a-serious-problem

EDIT: and after playing coh for this long i could refine the hell out of that original post to flesh that out to be much better than the original. but again, relic shows no interest so why would anyone put effort in

I haven't seen your post before but this system looks great! Reminds a little of CoH 1 but I'd say it would still work with CoH 2. It appears it would help a lot with balance and would give you a trade off if you decide to go full call ins. E.g. For mechanized you would have to choose to go Stug Es which would delay your tiger forcing you to tech up and try to stall to the very late game.