Mortars/Howies: Nerf autoattack, maybe buff barrage

Auto attack need vision on target barrage does not...

If barrage becomes significantly better than auto attack teams that have mini map intelligence will have a vast advantage over team with out...

On the other hand, if i remember correctly
Wer mortar has better auto fire than barrage
SO mortar has better barrage then autofire
OKW has better autofire than barrage
USF has better barrage than autofire
UKf mortar has better autofire than barrage...

Imo thing are fine...

Auto attack need vision on target barrage does not...

If barrage becomes significantly better than auto attack teams that have mini map intelligence will have a vast advantage over team with out...

On the other hand, if i remember correctly
Wer mortar has better auto fire than barrage
SO mortar has better barrage then autofire
OKW has better autofire than barrage
USF has better barrage than autofire
UKf mortar has better autofire than barrage...

Imo thing are fine...

No... not really. Auto attack is the same as "attack ground". Many players already use it like myself because barrage gives few to no benefits. Barrage should always be better than auto fire because it requires micro and a cooldown. Autofire should be less especially with the huge radius of mortar pit and leig.
The proposed change would change all of these factions in line with barrage>autofire so your current issues with the change wouldn't have any effect.

Things are not fine because leig (at least the old one) and mortar pit have more kills than snipers or mainline infantry lol. 120mm costs 13 pop, shoots slower, does less damage, lower effect than a normal 81mm. OST mortar was OP so it's RoF was nerfed in a patch last year.

Slow consistent damage is better instead of RNG killing full hp models or not hitting a single model.

No... not really. Auto attack is the same as "attack ground"...

No actually you are wrong (at least in some cases...)...For instance the USf pack howi barrages at greater range than it can autofire or attack ground....

All abilities and units that are in tier 1 and tier 2 should not be able to one-shot full-health squads. PERIOD. Demo satchels by people abusing their ping has to be one of the most aggravating thing about this game as well.

Mines or 120mm mortars one shotting in the early game is some grade-a nonsense. Forcing a retreat early on is already a painful loss in addition to losing most of the models in a squad.

The RNG they put into this game is ridiculous when its all-or-nothing rng that wipes squads. It only magnifies the performance and design issues this game has. There's nothing more frustrating than to have the game be at 2 second input lag because of the engine and latency and losing to a squad-wiping ability. Or having your squads bunch up because of sticky movement towards cover to be wiped by a mine.

I wish relic would reward higher-micro gameplay more.

No actually you are wrong (at least in some cases...)...For instance the USf pack howi barrages at greater range than it can autofire or attack ground....

Please give me another example other than 57mm. Mortar pit, OST mortar, OST mortar halftrack, USF mortar truck, leig, SOV mortar, SOV 120mm.

Your example is the ONLY example. And this example doesn't refute the argument that barrages should be better than autofire. GJ for wasting time.

What? And give blobblers yet another handout? no thanks.

Your proposition would just incentivize yet more blob spam tactics and yet again put the micro tax on those that are already micro taxed because of the diversity of their units.

Nope, nope and nopety-nope.

What? And give blobblers yet another handout? no thanks.

Your proposition would just incentivize yet more blob spam tactics and yet again put the micro tax on those that are already micro taxed because of the diversity of their units.

Nope, nope and nopety-nope.

Did you EVEN READ this entire thread? Reducing auto attack damage so blobbers get less out of spamming units and it rewards people who micro by adding damage to using the barrage ability? Because at the moment, auto-attack is more rewarding than using barrage.

What? And give blobblers yet another handout? no thanks.

Your proposition would just incentivize yet more blob spam tactics and yet again put the micro tax on those that are already micro taxed because of the diversity of their units.

Nope, nope and nopety-nope.

Please heed the following advice and reconsider your position.

The whole argument of:
- People blob
- Therefore mines/PeeWerfers/CalliOP/Mortars should continue to instawipe squads
- Thus, people will stop blobbing (so that they don't get all their squads wiped)

Is flawed, and similar to the following argument:



The reason is that there are unintended consequences elsewhere in the game:
- Having access to easy squad wipes encourages buying said units
- Mortars currently require no micro
- This promotes lazy playing for the mortar-guy
- Provides a frustrating experience to the victim-guy
- This is despite the fact that the mortar-guy does not deserve that reward

Barrage should be always better or at least offer an alternative to auto attack/attack ground.
I'll include abilities like counterbarrage here as well.

Please heed the following advice and reconsider your position.

The whole argument of:
- People blob
- Therefore mines/PeeWerfers/CalliOP/Mortars should continue to instawipe squads
- Thus, people will stop blobbing (so that they don't get all their squads wiped)

Is flawed, and similar to the following argument:



The reason is that there are unintended consequences elsewhere in the game:
- Having access to easy squad wipes encourages buying said units
- Mortars currently require no micro
- This promotes lazy playing for the mortar-guy
- Provides a frustrating experience to the victim-guy
- This is despite the fact that the mortar-guy does not deserve that reward

Wrong analogy mate. There are plenty of counters to mortar, they aren't infallible and the more fluid the game becomes, the less effective they are.

And the whole "provides frustrating experience to victim-guy", tough luck, every single experience doesn't have to be pleasurable. Getting smashed by colonel 100 shitbuckets isn't fun either, but that is how it is, just get over it. We aren't talking of broken game mechanics, but essentially trying to fix something that is not broken.

Mortars have plenty of counters and they are hardly the only AoE unit that does those lucky insta wipes, that is an issue with RnG and unit clustering, not the unit specifically.

The other day a AEC insta wipped a squad of jeagers because they decided to cluster all together. Despite how OP AEC are this is the fault of poor game coding not AoE weapon.

Please give me another example other than 57mm. Mortar pit, OST mortar, OST mortar halftrack, USF mortar truck, leig, SOV mortar, SOV 120mm.

Your example is the ONLY example. And this example doesn't refute the argument that barrages should be better than autofire. GJ for wasting time.

First of all, pls don't be offensive...

You made a claim that auto attack same with attack ground and barrage offer no benefits. That claim is wrong because as I explained to you the USF 75mm pack howitzer and (not the 57mm ATG) uses the limited range of the autofire and attack ground and not the extended of the barrage and futher more at vet 2 barrage uses Heat munition.

Barrage should not be significantly better than autofire because you have less warning when you are being barraged than when you being autofired upon...

Further more as I explain before the assumption that the barrage is not better than autofire is also wrong, some of the these weapon actually barrage better than they autofire already..

pm41_82mm_mortar_barrage_mp
scattermaxdistance 6.00
Cooldown time (F/N) 3.25 / 3.25

pm41_82mm_mortar_mp
scattermaxdistance 8.00
Cooldown time (F/N) 3.63 / 3.63

Wrong analogy mate.

sorry just have to point out that the analogy is perfectly fitting. Perhaps you don't understand it?

@whitesky00, Myself

Both of you are saying the same thing. However, what you are saying is lost in translation.

What whitesky00 said (and is correct) is:
- We have 3 terms: "autoattack, "attack ground", and "barrages"
- "attack ground" uses the same stats as "autoattack"
- It is possible to issue "attack ground" into the FoW (Fog of War)
- thus, what Myself claimed (i.e., you can only barrage into the FoW) is incorrect

However, what I'm saying is:
- If autoattack gets nerfed, the cooldown of barrages might get buffed
- That way, you will be able to fire into the FoW more frequently (assuming you don't know the Attack Ground trick)

@Virtual Boar
I think I also got lost in translation. What I meant was take the Panzerwerfer
- If you overbuff the Panzerwerfer/Mortars/we will discourage blobbing
- However, you will also discourage people from investing into infantry/you-name-it at all

Please read the clarification post carefully:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/49543/mortars-howies-nerf-autoattack-maybe-buff-barrage/post/494427

You will see for yourself that Mortars will still do a pretty damn job at punishing clustered units (even with autoattack). However, you won't be able to see any "filthy" squad wipes as often.

Did you EVEN READ this entire thread? Reducing auto attack damage so blobbers get less out of spamming units and it rewards people who micro by adding damage to using the barrage ability? Because at the moment, auto-attack is more rewarding than using barrage.

Man, auto attack doesnt allways hit the target last place of the target. Often it works to hit the moving target, it calculates the place where the target is going to be. You will never, never do the same with barage because of its stupid cool downs.
Only broken indirect pf all factions atm is the british pit, it has too big range and is too strong atm. I think the health should be tooned down a bit.
Everything else is easy counterable.

Dont fix what is not broken.

@whitesky00, Myself

Both of you are saying the same thing. However, what you are saying is lost in translation.

What whitesky00 said (and is correct) is:
- We have 3 terms: "autoattack, "attack ground", and "barrages"
- "attack ground" uses the same stats as "autoattack"
- It is possible to issue "attack ground" into the FoW (Fog of War)
- thus, what Myself claimed (i.e., you can only barrage into the FoW) is incorrect

However, what I'm saying is:
- If autoattack gets nerfed, the cooldown of barrages might get buffed
- That way, you will be able to fire into the FoW more frequently (assuming you don't know the Attack Ground trick)

@Virtual Boar
I think I also got lost in translation. What I meant was take the Panzerwerfer
- If you overbuff the Panzerwerfer/Mortars/we will discourage blobbing
- However, you will also discourage people from investing into infantry/you-name-it at all

Please read the clarification post carefully:
https://www.coh2.org/topic/49543/mortars-howies-nerf-autoattack-maybe-buff-barrage/post/494427

You will see for yourself that Mortars will still do a pretty damn job at punishing clustered units (even with autoattack). However, you won't be able to see any "filthy" squad wipes as often.

Man, auto attack doesnt allways hit the target last place of the target. Often it works to hit the moving target, it calculates the place where the target is going to be. You will never, never do the same with barage because of its stupid cool downs.
Only broken indirect pf all factions atm is the british pit, it has too big range and is too strong atm. I think the health should be tooned down a bit.
Everything else is easy counterable.

Dont fix what is not broken.

@gvardia_legiones please refer to quote above. it's not about accuracy, it's about wiping full HP squads with RNG instead of a slower more stable damage that won't kill squads/models outright.

Do you ever bombard something and end up hitting nothing?
Do you ever bombard something and kill everything?

That's what we're referring to and the OP is just suggesting a way to improve the game.

@whitesky00, Myself

Both of you are saying the same thing. However, what you are saying is lost in translation.

What whitesky00 said (and is correct) is:
- We have 3 terms: "autoattack, "attack ground", and "barrages"
- "attack ground" uses the same stats as "autoattack"
- It is possible to issue "attack ground" into the FoW (Fog of War)
- thus, what Myself claimed (i.e., you can only barrage into the FoW) is incorrect

Autoattacks and barrages uses different files with different properties and in some cases barrage have better properties than autofire...

I am not sure what file and properties attack ground uses for these weapons...For instance some ballistic weapon have less scatter when they attack ground than when they autofire...

One can use attack ground in F.O.W. (I never claimed the opposite) but weather that is better then barrage is or not is not clear and in some cases barrage is better...

There is also a reason why firing into the FOW has scatter penalty....

Autoattacks and barrages uses different files with different properties and in some cases barrage have better properties than autofire...

I am not sure what file and properties attack ground uses for these weapons...For instance some ballistic weapon have less scatter when they attack ground than when they autofire...

One can use attack ground in F.O.W. (I never claimed the opposite) but weather that is better then barrage is or not is not clear and in some cases barrage is better...

"Attack ground" uses the "autoattack" weapon stats.

You can try it for yourself with a fully-vetted LeIG (their barrage range becomes significantly longer at vet3).

"Attack ground" uses the "autoattack" weapon stats.
You can try it for yourself with a fully-vetted LeIG (their barrage range becomes significantly longer at vet3).

Brumbar attack ground uses the auto attack range and not barrage range but it still scatter less when it attacks ground than when it auto attacks...

I am not really you sure one can actually test this in game....

Anyway my point still stands there are mortar type weapons that are already better at barraging than auto-firing...

Remove auto-attack completely.

Add 2 abilities:
- low saturation barrage (area-denial): moderate amount of shells over long time (low rate of fire)
- high saturation barrage (burst): low amount of shells (like 4-5) over short time (hight rate of fire)

As ISU1-152 and Leig/Pack changes demonstrated adding micro to balance units is a bad approach...