Replace spio with vgren as okw starting unit

I don't know that it can be said any clearer that this is not a balance issue.

Sure, sturms will win at close range, but they have to get there in the first place, which puts the micro burden on the OKW player. They trade at a loss in all other cases, even when they cause an early squad retreat.

Win rates don't support this as a balance issue either.

I would say it is more like half and half with the against just trolling with "lol no".

"lol, no" absolutely not trolling, it's just that the guy who said that doesn't want to go trough the effort of explaining it to you and wants just to get over with it.

Also add polls in the future so that we don't have to answer to you.

Give OKW both fuel for the first few minutes.

You are advocating this as a legit response?

He takes one , you take the other. Only 4v4 maps really have natural fuel sectors.

Ijust realised..

Volks have..

conscript level cheapness
Penal squad anti garrison
shock/gaurd grenade capability
Partisan AT ability


they are all soviet infantry rolled into one unit.

They don't have doctrinal:
Sprint
Flame throwers
AT nades

Hmm k?

He takes one , you take the other. Only 4v4 maps really have natural fuel sectors.

Demonstrably false

"lol, no" absolutely not trolling, it's just that the guy who said that doesn't want to go trough the effort of explaining it to you and wants just to get over with it.

Also add polls in the future so that we don't have to answer to you.

Why are you being so hostile?

They don't have doctrinal:
Sprint
Flame throwers
AT nades

Hmm k?

And the soviet dont have any mobile AT without a doctrine, elite infantry or a heavy fucking tank. If you want any of those you need to greatly refine your commander choice (no NKVD) if you want ALL of those you get... The isu commander with guards iirc... And I think thats a premium as well (idr) I think his point however is that ANYTHING the Soviet can do the okw can do more efficiently except spam machine guns.( also if it comes down to being able to Sprint and being able to kill....anything I think we all know the better choice)

And the soviet dont have any mobile AT without a doctrine, elite infantry or a heavy fucking tank. If you want any of those you need to greatly refine your commander choice (no NKVD) if you want ALL of those you get... The isu commander with guards iirc... And I think thats a premium as well (idr) I think his point however is that ANYTHING the Soviet can do the okw can do more efficiently except spam machine guns.( also if it comes down to being able to Sprint and being able to kill....anything I think we all know the better choice)

I was responding to his comment about volks having all the soviet abilities in one unit. I was list some thing the soviets have that the OKW don't. If you want to include all the OKW units go ahead.

Also, you said that anything the soviets can do the OKW can do more efficiently. This simply isn't true. There are many units and abilities OKW doesn't have. Demos for example. Also, efficiency is the cost effectiveness of something. Just because the OKW has better units does not mean the are more efficient. Nearly all the OKW units are more expensive than there counter parts.

And please don't think I'm an OKW fanboi. They are tied for my least favorite faction with USFs. Both factions are all about blobbing main infantry. (Both have AI and AT hmmm)

Demonstrably false

Ok can you demonstrate that I'm false?

If he's putting his best unit to one fuel, you put yours to the other. Hmmk?

i test in Sov green cover (sandbag), the only allied core infantry cant survive the Spio rush is cons..

while IS n Rifle manage to kill them during the rush

this is true. this is also why spios should not rush unless the IS or riflemen are out of cover. ideally they'd also be facing away from the spios. if spios close before the IS or riflemen can fire then the spios win. how easy this is for spios depends on the map and the player. spios can also duck back just behind shot blocks and win if the IS or riflemen try and turn the corner.

this is true. this is also why spios should not rush unless the IS or riflemen are out of cover. ideally they'd also be facing away from the spios. if spios close before the IS or riflemen can fire then the spios win. how easy this is for spios depends on the map and the player. spios can also duck back just behind shot blocks and win if the IS or riflemen try and turn the corner.

provide a video or i'm going to call bullshit. I posted a video and did multiple tests and Sturms have a very good chance at killing IS in green cover from max distance.



not 100% sturms will win but a very good chance.

and this is assumng max distance, if they come out from around the corner or any other true sight shenanigans, the IS have no chance. Or if the IS need to reposition after finding Sturms capping a point, they also have no chance.

Well i did my own tests in green cover, remember that buildings would be a totally differen't thing. (a nightmare to clear)



It all comes down to rng and positioning, but spios get punished enough for green cover assault. You also need to take in account that those sturms always end up with so little health that they have to also retreat, so its a loss for okw or a tie, never a win. Sturm models are also the most expensive of these squads.

Well i did my own tests in green cover, remember that buildings would be a totally differen't thing. (a nightmare to clear)



It all comes down to rng and positioning, but spios get punished enough for green cover assault. You also need to take in account that those sturms always end up with so little health that they have to also retreat, so its a loss for okw or a tie, never a win. Sturm models are also the most expensive of these squads.

That isn't point blank, also you do realize that cover is negated at close range anyway so putting up the ghost sandbags is pointless.

That isn't point blank, also you do realize that cover is negated at close range anyway so putting up the ghost sandbags is pointless.

i do, the reason for the sandbags is that they can't close next to them, and also if you had a second squad near, they would benefit from sturms not having cover against them. But that test proves your's wrong.

this is true. this is also why spios should not rush unless the IS or riflemen are out of cover. ideally they'd also be facing away from the spios. if spios close before the IS or riflemen can fire then the spios win. how easy this is for spios depends on the map and the player. spios can also duck back just behind shot blocks and win if the IS or riflemen try and turn the corner.

tnx, n i also forgot to mention. penal survive the Spio rush.. which i dont know y, but they just did.

Sturm + Kubel early game is just pure BS. As USF, all you can do is run around the map avoiding them until you get a blob going. It's VERY, very frustrating.

I guess you can beat Sturms alone without Kubel DPS from green cover max range, but who is retarded enough to not utilize some kind of a shot blocker? (in the video, the house could have been used to block LoS, entering from front door, exiting from back)

why a faction like okw gets such a potent engineer squad while USF get a engineer squad with no fighthing capabilities?

I am not saying this is wrong, just want to know the reasons...is it coz rifleman are so powerful in the early game?? or there is other reasons?

as I see it, sturmpio + volks are quite more powerfull than rifleman + RET, and then, you can holster your sweeper as OKW, you have AT upgrade for Volks with no side tech costs and inc nade at disposal without unlock, you can salvage and plant mines with spios and so on, while as USF, you only can spend manpower in fighting positions and make green cover with RET, but that´s all....(Well RET is supposed to be able to suppress squads by paying muni, but in the very early game you don´t want to spend munitions just to suppress a enemy squad, as you need this muni to clean garrisons with nades, or to give to RET a bar so you can use them as a figthing squad and not only to back-cap).


just asking.....as I seen both factions, OKW has better early game, very powerfull light vehicles (not sure if better or worse than USF light vehicles) such as puma, AA half track, luchs....and of course, OKW has better late game with non-doc rocket artillery , better mediums than USF and non-doc heavy aka KT.


sorry to OP if this go off-topic.


edited to remove some "?" signs in my questions, as other users in the past though I was very aggresive because I use more than one "?" when asking a question...

USF has the least amount of trouble early game against OKW by far. Rifles eat Volks for breakfeast, lone Sturms can be taken down quite easily by dual rifles if need be, and Sturm + Kubel combo is a pain but you have the numbers to play around it until the Captain or M20 rolls out.

If this was a balance problem, the numbers would reflect it, and they simply don't. Yes, Sturms are powerful, but they are far from invincible superunits early game, they're fragile and costly to reinforce, and once the early game passes they lose a lot of their combat potential due to dying so fast.

Ok can you demonstrate that I'm false?

If he's putting his best unit to one fuel, you put yours to the other. Hmmk?

What you are saying, if I understand correctly, is that the opening Spio rushing my fuel on this map is just as effective as a Soviet engineer rushing the enemy fuel point.

Ok, lets say i did this. Spio has capped my fuel and has now got himself holed up in the building covering it in the south.

I cannot retake the fuel as it would be too close to the spios and I would lose lots of models. To get my fuel back I would need to put at least 2 cons on the fence by the road and spend the next minute shooting him out of the building.

Meanwhile, my engineers at the enemy fuel point have been forced off by a kubel or volksgren because they are only 4 men armed with nuggets.

For the price of annoying his fuel I am now without a tech start and have a severe lack of map pretense while the okw player got his fuel back first, did not experience any lag in teching and has more map control. All in the first 2-3 minutes.

False status: Demonstrated.

What you are saying, if I understand correctly, is that the opening Spio rushing my fuel on this map is just as effective as a Soviet engineer rushing the enemy fuel point.

Ok, lets say i did this. Spio has capped my fuel and has now got himself holed up in the building covering it in the south.

I cannot retake the fuel as it would be too close to the spios and I would lose lots of models. To get my fuel back I would need to put at least 2 cons on the fence by the road and spend the next minute shooting him out of the building.

Meanwhile, my engineers at the enemy fuel point have been forced off by a kubel or volksgren because they are only 4 men armed with nuggets.

For the price of annoying his fuel I am now without a tech start and have a severe lack of map pretense while the okw player got his fuel back first, did not experience any lag in teching and has more map control. All in the first 2-3 minutes.

False status: Demonstrated.

Or you could cap the rest of the map and put the sturmpios in a position where staying in the house is a waste of time. Fuel points are not THAT important. If he wants to camp that house, let him. It'll be useless if he's outcapped or cut off.