Beef's Beef: Soviet Infantry Woes

Yeah, Guards and Shocks are easily among the best balanced infantry in the game. Good, but not too much.

I still think conscripts should do more DPS as they vet up. Having to rely on doctrines to provide your high damage infantry severely limits doctrine choice. Every single doc that doesn't give you Guards or Shocks (or PPSH at the very least) is utterly unused by Soviet players, save from Lend-Lease to cheese in 1v1.

I actually use quite a few of them.

They just encourage a less infantry heavy playstyle. Support weapons, vehicles and a different style of play altogether.

Penals being buffed would bridge the gap though.

Personally,

I'd like cons to get an SVD upgrade and penals to get PPSHs with their flamethrowers.

BAM

One dedicated close range/anti garrison, and cons can scale with better weapons like other factions, less effective than an LMG, but can fire on the move to fit their human-wave-ness.


The munition sink would be pretty deep, trading away mines/Throwables/zis barrage for infantry upgrades

Shocks still useful vs penals by way of grenades and body armor.

Guards still useful vs cons because of AT rifles, received accuracy, grenades and LMG.

But not as reliant on the call ins.

Complelty pointless "fix" for Penals. WHy would I uise them? Low DPS, weak upgrade and of top of that 300MP.

Penals are almost fine currently. They do the job on urban maps.
The only thing they need is to take out one 30%+ accuracy (they got 2x30%) and give them -30% rec. acc. By doing that, they won't drop like flies and their close/mid range combat will be way more efficient.

Make penal damage lean to long range so they synergize with defensive cons and I think they're good. Australian Magic's vet change could also be a solid way to make them feel more elite.

Personally,

I'd like cons to get an SVD upgrade and penals to get PPSHs with their flamethrowers.

Do you mean the SVT 40? the The SVD wasn't issued until the early 1960's.

In any case as the current SVT stands its a close range weapon,
Cons should have a long range option like a DP.

Non doct PPSH on Shtrafbat fits their "Suicide squad" type design.
I disagree that they should be long range infantry,
That's what cons are supposed to be with their 91/30's.

Do you mean the SVT 40? the The SVD wasn't issued until the early 1960's.

In any case as the current SVT stands its a close range weapon,
Cons should have a long range option like a DP.

Non doct PPSH on Shtrafbat fits their "Suicide squad" type design.
I disagree that they should be long range infantry,
That's what cons are supposed to be with their 91/30's.

Yes, SVTs my bad.

The more I think about it the more sense it makes. Why the clamor to make penals long range infantry? The have satchels and flames, and are referred to as a "suicide squad". They should be close range fighters.

Replacing their SVTs just makes too much sense.

It would also remove the dependency on shocks, which would still easily have a place for people who skip T1 in favor of T2.

It would open up the viability of many commanders IMO.

Complelty pointless "fix" for Penals. WHy would I uise them? Low DPS, weak upgrade and of top of that 300MP.

Penals are almost fine currently. They do the job on urban maps.
The only thing they need is to take out one 30%+ accuracy (they got 2x30%) and give them -30% rec. acc. By doing that, they won't drop like flies and their close/mid range combat will be way more efficient.

If by "do the job" you mean fulfill an identical role to flamer Engies and Shocks while eating up a valuable slot in a tier that sees no competitive use in a faction that has no non doctrinal elite infantry and relies on HMG spam, I agree.

Penals don't have to be an urban unit, they should be an inbetween of Cons and Guards.

When you look at the Special Rifle Command, it says it deploys tough infantry for reconnaissance. Semi-elite, ranged Penals could easily represent Soviet Razvedka, too. It even makes sense thematically.

They should just give penals another upgrade, to mosins, but I mean really good mosins like ober K98. That way they can either choose flamer and go short range or mosins and go long range. It would be pretty neat if this upgrade also exchanged satchel for something less short range oriented, could be a AT-only mine unique to that unit or even better, snipe ability that would give soviets more chances against snipers and okw officer blob, would also give a short brake in mg-42 fire. I don't want to copy gren rifle nade or usf smoke nade.

@ZombiFrancis Nice solution so SU get both (originaly doctrinal call-in) elite infantry Guards (for soft AT + long range) from T1 + Shocks (for hard AI) from doctrine sound fair and balanced. But can you explain to me how this change the situation with Penals, who will use them?

Well, not really. So the changes that I made in that Tuning pack removed elite infantry accuracy while moving and at long range, and kept that soft AT behind the commanders that would've had Guards call-ins, and the DP-28s AND the grenades require teching to unlock. It's a bit different than a flat swap.

So there's still be no PTRS + Shocks. And they don't have that long range potential until they at least get DP-28s, and only if a Guards commander is chosen: PTRS. Also keep in mind this then leaves the Soviets with NO infantry unit that excels at range, except for the sniper. That alone has significant strategic implications to consider.

And like I said, this didn't change the role of Penals much. I increased their accuracy and while it made them competent like conscripts, they were still extremely situational. So I essentially treated them like Assault Grenadiers. On said urban maps where Penal Battalions perform effectively, a commander with Penals could be chosen to capitalize on that fact. Better a commander choice be situational than an entire faction's tech tier.

The problem here is two-fold. First: with the Penal Battalion unit itself, and Second: That unit being in Tier 1, leaving Tier 1 in a rather awkward spot for Soviets. Changing the role of Penals could potentially solve both aspects. A simply buffed Penal Battalion in the same role in T1 will only address half the problem.

If by "do the job" you mean fulfill an identical role to flamer Engies and Shocks while eating up a valuable slot in a tier that sees no competitive use in a faction that has no non doctrinal elite infantry and relies on HMG spam, I agree.

Penals don't have to be an urban unit, they should be an inbetween of Cons and Guards.

When you look at the Special Rifle Command, it says it deploys tough infantry for reconnaissance. Semi-elite, ranged Penals could easily represent Soviet Razvedka, too. It even makes sense thematically.

Completly wrong.

Show me triple engi/shocks build on maps like Trois Points or Lierneux. With engis you gonna lose map presence since their only power is flamethrowerer. Shocks are avaible at 2CPs and expensive.

Again, why should I get 300MP squad with 1 DP if I can get better Guards?
Or just get Cons for better long range and better vet.


Semi-auto + flamer make Penals great units. All they need is -30% rec. acc. and suddenly they will become quasi-elite with lower rec. acc.

And no, Enigs, nor Shocks fill their role.

Cons are expendable utility units

Critical error (not on your part, but on Relics part). There is no such thing as expendable units in CoH.

Critical error (not on your part, but on Relics part). There is no such thing as expendable units in CoH.

Agree. And thats because you dont see rapid conscripation in use.

Completly wrong.

Show me triple engi/shocks build on maps like Trois Points or Lierneux. With engis you gonna lose map presence since their only power is flamethrowerer. Shocks are avaible at 2CPs and expensive.

Again, why should I get 300MP squad with 1 DP if I can get better Guards?
Or just get Cons for better long range and better vet.


Semi-auto + flamer make Penals great units. All they need is -30% rec. acc. and suddenly they will become quasi-elite with lower rec. acc.

And no, Enigs, nor Shocks fill their role.

You could also get Molotov conscripts. Point stands that a unit that overlaps with 3 other infantry troops in what it counters (garrison) isn't good when call-ins and the Maxim exist. The fact that nobody uses Penals is pretty good proof, it's better if they get removed from a niche urban BO and become a more widespread unit. It's like if Panzgrens were a cost inefficient gren substitute with an ability that let them set up like an MG42-nobody would build them because Grens + hmg would be 99% better, just like outside of urban bo that would be better off with maxims anyway can use Penals.

You would get 300 mp Penals for guard level anti-infantry without the PTRS. If anything I want Penals to become weaker Panzerfusilers, which ftr are a bit stronger at range than Cons.

And yes, flamer Engies and shocks are both anti-garrison, they just have different price upkeep durability utility, etc. Penals fall into the same boat, only they're the least cost efficient, are tier locked, and have the least utility outside coming early. Try the guys tuning mod (although a bit different than penal change to fusilier type unit) and tell me you think current Penals are better for the faction as a whole.

It feels like no doc soviet is lacking short range ai, long range ai/lmg carrier and inf carried at. Penals somehow manage to miss all of these roles.

Ontop of that no at in t1 makes it a trash teir - its pointless buffing penals without addressing this.

I'd say give penals a more guards rifle profile as stock, add 3 ppsh to the flamer upgrade and add a seperate ptrs package. Maybe swap om of the vet buffs to - recieved accuracy.

You all try to change penals while their only problem is durability which can be fixed by adjusting vet.

And Penals dont overlap with engis or shocks. Engis cannot be your mainline and they are useless without flamers. Penals are very potent. Try to put them in M3 and flank even 2 volks squads. They will melt them.

Again, their only problem is lack of good rec acc bonus.
If they need anyother buff its slight increase of long range.

I use them all the time on Urban maps. Triple penals strat melt everything on such maps. Only late game is problematic cause of rec acc

I don't doubt that Penals on urban maps can't be a really good strat, I understand that 6 man carbine flamers wreck infantry up to the lategame. I sometimes go 2 guards and 2 penals with cons on la gleize/armheim. But- I just want the unit to be more viable on other maps, because on urban maps while Engies or shocks are less efficient than penals they still fill the role, while Soviets have no unit to fill the role of basic infantry like Gren. (Cons are utility units as per Relic.)

Here's a compromise- the unit can retain flamer upgrade but can also get DP-28 upgrade, damage on rifles increased, price to 290. (24 per man.)

And replace oorah! vet ability with grenade

But for long range you have Cons with rifles with quite good vet.
So if anyone lacks DP upgrade it's Cons.

Semi-auto rifles does not fit DP28 upgrade but standard rifles do.

You all try to change penals while their only problem is durability which can be fixed by adjusting vet.

And Penals dont overlap with engis or shocks. Engis cannot be your mainline and they are useless without flamers. Penals are very potent. Try to put them in M3 and flank even 2 volks squads. They will melt them.

Again, their only problem is lack of good rec acc bonus.
If they need anyother buff its slight increase of long range.

I use them all the time on Urban maps. Triple penals strat melt everything on such maps. Only late game is problematic cause of rec acc

Penal very potent? You are funny.
Most of the players who have long played by the Soviet will take the shock troops.
Penal is the way to defeat, it is very bad. Because the majority of Soviet commanders are not used.
I agree to remove penal flamethrower and make them ranged combat unit. Replacing ability

Penal very potent? You are funny.
Most of the players who have long played by the Soviet will take the shock troops.
Penal is the way to defeat, it is very bad. Because the majority of Soviet commanders are not used.
I agree to remove penal flamethrower and make them ranged combat unit. Replacing ability

Didnt know you can get Shocks in the first minute, equip them with flamers and that the cost or lower than 300MP

Penals are not a-move units. They are L2P units and if you can use them in right way, they are devastating in maps like Lierneux or Trois-Points.
If you can't use them, that not Penals fault.

But for long range you have Cons with rifles with quite good vet.
So if anyone lacks DP upgrade it's Cons.

Semi-auto rifles does not fit DP28 upgrade but standard rifles do.

DP-28 cons+ maxims might be too much though. Soviet faction need nondoc infantry long range punch, it can only be penals. (Or maybe engies lol)

relics been very clear on their stance on cons, with Penals it's been murkier so a change might happen. Plus profile of dp-28 is more similar to carbine(not really an argument just observation, it would be better)

Redoing con veterancy so they die the same but do much more rifle damage would make sense but that wouldn't fit the "utility" role relic has on them unfortunately.