WTF Bofors?

Stuka ZU Fuss.

Have you seen how much punishment a brace structure with self repair can take? Assuming the guy isn't an idiot and has the structure properly supported it can be near impossible..

Yes, Axis fanboi.
I see you post only from one perspective every single thread.
Please look at poll votes and see the percentage and people who disagree that it's OP.

If you let one be built on the front line... that means you're not scouting and you're not fighting for key positions but blobbing, mass retreating, and letting them build their defenses while you're not there. It's the same concept with mg bunkers.

If you use bofors to lock down one point, well you're free to capture the rest of the map. The bofors does not suppress unless you use barrage ability which has a long cooldown. AT gun + attack ground on an open area, leig + attack ground, flame half track while it's on brace, mortars, shreks.... so many counter options

Bofors requires fuel to unlock and fuel to build. Unlocking it locks out it's other light vehicle allowing you to just move around and counter somewhere else.

In order for it be effective, you need both a bofors and a mortar pit which is over 700+ MP not including fuel cost. If you want the emplacements to self-repair, you will need munitions along with another commander.

You just need to watch more replays in order to counter emplacements. It's not hard. Or, you can play as UKF and see for yourself. I believe UKF has the lowest win rate of all factions especially in team games.

Yes, Axis fanboi.
I see you post only from one perspective every single thread.
Please look at poll votes and see the percentage and people who disagree that it's OP.

If you let one be built on the front line... that means you're not scouting and you're not fighting for key positions but blobbing, mass retreating, and letting them build their defenses while you're not there. It's the same concept with mg bunkers.

If you use bofors to lock down one point, well you're free to capture the rest of the map. The bofors does not suppress unless you use barrage ability which has a long cooldown. AT gun + attack ground on an open area, leig + attack ground, flame half track while it's on brace, mortars, shreks.... so many counter options

Bofors requires fuel to unlock and fuel to build. Unlocking it locks out it's other light vehicle allowing you to just move around and counter somewhere else.

In order for it be effective, you need both a bofors and a mortar pit which is over 700+ MP not including fuel cost. If you want the emplacements to self-repair, you will need munitions along with another commander.

You just need to watch more replays in order to counter emplacements. It's not hard. Or, you can play as UKF and see for yourself. I believe UKF has the lowest win rate of all factions especially in team games.

I stopped reading at axis fanboy

They need to make it be destroyed easier while it is being built, paks and indirect shooting at it while it is building has very little hope of killing it unless the engineers get killed. These things need to only be built when the map is safe, it should be more punishing to try to build them while under fire.

I don't like the gameplay that involves heavy emplacements like these, but I think it is fairly balanced otherwise.

How can anyone think the bofors is fine on some maps like rails and metal and minsk? It's incredibly cheap for a tool that requires far too many counterplays to justify its power. What you need to take it out is: mortarHT (for flame barrage and smoke), LeiG (For hitting it continuously), flamer pio, 3+ schrecks, maybe a rak. The sheer amount of units, commitment and coordination required to even stand a chance of taking it out is something completely unique to the bofors.

The thing is: on many 2v2 maps it's never unsupported. The maps are simply too small for there not to be allied infantry near it. You can't just waddle your flamers and 3+ schrecks in and shoot 3+ volleys to kill it while it's braced. Squads can and will be wiped once it unbraces. There will always be maxims + cons or the US player's rifles around. The brit might even have a mortar pit behind it or a 30cal on the flank. Point is, these suggested approaches to taking it down are almost purely theoretical and are so much harder to make work in a reasonably close game.

Even when you kill it, it was still extremely cheap for something that takes complete control of (most often) the center of the map. The axis time expenditure to kill it alone is worth it for the brit players.

I haven't even mentioned the engineers repair ability yet. This ability makes the emplacement pretty much unkillable. It's not even like the commander is a weak one: AVRE is still a very good tank and the other abilities have their uses too.

This kind of unit design isn't fun. Every time you attack it, it feels like an all-or-nothing attack which has been forced on to you just because you lost control of an important part of the map for half a minute. People mentioning that the p4 counters it: the point is almost irrelevant. No way the allies won't have at least one ATG out by then, and if the bofors has survived for as much time as it takes to get out a normally timed P4 it will easily have paid for itself.

To be fair, the brits kind of need this. Their very obvious weaknesses in the early/mid game (no good early sniper counter, infantry sections being shit until they get 5man + vet3 + double bren, no viable light vehicles) make them reliant on gimmicks and insanely powerful later game units and abilities to make up for it.

The Bofors is just OK. Yes it denies map control, but it is easily countered by indirect fire and AT guns. If you won't pick a doctrine with MHT (there is more), then you should be ready to play aggressively or purchase more regular mortars.

The issue you are describing is a perception issue. The Brit player is designed to lock down sectors of the map and never retreat from them. Then as the game proceeds they get stronger and stronger before breaking out and defeating the German player. This gives the German team a feeling of being close to winning for a long period of time (If I just destroy that emplacement, If I just push attack that Forward retreat point once more, etc.), when in fact they are losing. Bofors are great because they cannot move, or vulnerable to flame, and lackluster to anything that is not a light vehicle or small groups of infantry. You can also try smoking the Bofors with mortars and then using shreks, flame (Pio's or HT), AT guns, or light vehicles. If he braces cover the area in smoke, and then keep doing it. You can use attack ground to destroy his Bofors when it pops out but he will have to run around trying to find a way to get his infantry to attack in smoke.

If he went Bofors before you went light vehicles generally that means its time for you to skip Light vehicles and upgrade to some tanks right away. The Bofors will not do much to a PIV, JPIV, or Stug.

...
The solution in (2) can be given by the worst CoH2-player in the history of the game, and still be correct. You don't need to be a good player to solve a problem.

The playercard argument should not be used at all from anyone (it creates hostility, turn a balance debate into personal issue and as you say even a bad player can solve (or identify) a problem).

Since nearly all units can be countered but all units are not balanced, an argument that there is a counter to something so it does not need balance changes hold little water...

In this example countering 280 mp 30FU emplacement with 2 volks 2 shrecks 2 puppen (1040 mp 180 MU) is not much of argument either because the same proposed counter accomplice very little if it was support with lest say an HMG...

By building a bofors, the British player essentially forces his opponents hands in extremely significant ways. Either in denying a major/strategic portion of the map, or requiring such a concerted (and predictable) counter the Bofors is a considerable means of constricting your opponent's possible strategies.

Throwing down a bofors to get my opponent to make a doctrine choice and spend munis off a mortar HT is playing into the British lategame so hard. Brit endgame is beefy, and the Axis have to be prepared for it, not tailoring their forces to counter emplacements. I swear, most advice for countering British emplacements is "assume the position for the croc".

Since nearly all units can be countered but all units are not balanced, an argument that there is a counter to something so it does not need balance changes hold little water...

This is a different question, but no one can say that the Bofors is impossible to counter (without tanks), if Katitof is correct. The question is then that is this counter "balanced". I think it is ok, because the Bofors is stationary until the end of the game or until it is destroyed, and the counter (2 Volks with Schrecks and 2 Rockets) can be used to other things as well, both before and after the fight with the Bofors.

I stopped reading at axis fanboy

It wasn't for YOU to read but for everyone else. You have a biased and prejudiced opinion hands down flat on the table. l2p and climb the ranks of UKF if you think they're so OP

puppchens are really effective against bofors, if they're not too well supported, and of course u need to get the bofors to shoot at something else.

should also add I do sometimes really struggle against well supported emplacements.

They need to make it be destroyed easier while it is being built, paks and indirect shooting at it while it is building has very little hope of killing it unless the engineers get killed. These things need to only be built when the map is safe, it should be more punishing to try to build them while under fire.

I don't like the gameplay that involves heavy emplacements like these, but I think it is fairly balanced otherwise.

Small arms rip apart any under construction stuff as it gets 0 armor.

The playercard argument should not be used at all from anyone (it creates hostility, turn a balance debate into personal issue and as you say even a bad player can solve (or identify) a problem).

Since nearly all units can be countered but all units are not balanced, an argument that there is a counter to something so it does not need balance changes hold little water...

In this example countering 280 mp 30FU emplacement with 2 volks 2 shrecks 2 puppen (1040 mp 180 MU) is not much of argument either because the same proposed counter accomplice very little if it was support with lest say an HMG...

I have no idea what you're comparing. We're talking just about 280 MP, 30 Fuel Bofors... If I was OKW, I can counter it with just 1 leig + attack ground (330 mp) until it's destroyed. I can use my OTHER units to defend that leig, build another leig, or take other parts of the map and put down my own flak HQ. If they try to repair, well the leig rng will generally kill if not wipe engineers repairing it.

Another post mentioned multiple units like cons, at, riflemen being stationed around it... well that's now 2v2. Where's your ally? what are they doing with the REST of the map? And that's just more fodder for indirect fire.

This is a different question, but no one can say that the Bofors is impossible to counter (without tanks), if Katitof is correct. The question is then that is this counter "balanced".

If the counter has more around 4.5 the cost...no. As I said the exact same counter against a bofors and a vickers which still cost less than half will fail...

I have no idea what you're comparing...

I replying to a specific argument, pls read understand respond...

If the counter has more around 4.5 the cost...no. As I said the exact same counter against a bofors and a vickers which still cost less than half will fail...

In this case, you should add to bofors the costs of engies repairing it and other units protecting it, in your very own example-a vickers.

I think it would be neat to design the bofors like the AA guns OKW has in their bases, where two incendiary grenades can take out the crew of the bofors and allow for it to be re-crewed, or two rifle nades. This way a simple distraction of the bofors while two units flank and clear it(to possibly be re-crewed by one of said units) could also become an option.

If the counter has more around 4.5 the cost...no. As I said the exact same counter against a bofors and a vickers which still cost less than half will fail...

Depends how you count, because you can't balance these unit symmetrically. Usually I build at least 2 Volks with Schrecks and one rocket when I play with OKW. In the games that I have seen on twitch with top players, they also build at least these units. So OKW doesn't need to alter their build order dramatically to destroy the Bofors with Katitof's solution. The "real" cost to destroy the Bofors is not 4,5 higher, because Katitof's solution doesn't alter the build order dramatically, and the units can be used to other tasks both before and after the fight with Bofors (which is static).

In this case, you should add to bofors the costs of engies repairing it and other units protecting it, in your very own example-a vickers.

280 + 280 +210 = 770+ 30 FU still cheaper...(74% cheaper MP wise)...

I think it would be neat to design the bofors like the AA guns OKW has in their bases, where two incendiary grenades can take out the crew of the bofors and allow for it to be re-crewed, or two rifle nades. This way a simple distraction of the bofors while two units flank and clear it(to possibly be re-crewed by one of said units) could also become an option.

Well doesn't that defeat the purpose of an emplacement especially the commander's ability to self-repair?

I don't mind but then I would require a commander ability change and also change all other emplacements. Give real retreatable mortars for UKF, give a Pak43 equivalent for 17 pounder with NO fuel cost, 8 POP Cap, and can shoot through unshootables. Now all UKF emplacements can now be "de-crewed" and I don't mind. I like it better that way especially when I see Axis armor hurting with my 17 pounder that can be repaired and recrewed and shoot through everything.

It wasn't for YOU to read but for everyone else. You have a biased and prejudiced opinion hands down flat on the table. l2p and climb the ranks of UKF if you think they're so OP

Rework volley fire
Needs to be buffed. It never really works. Like maybe 1.5 or 2 seconds faster to suppress.

IS 2 problem
Is2 needs a buff somewhere I think, but I think in doing so it will become OP in 1v1.

Sherman Firefly
(I made a thread on buffing this unit)

Calliopes
They are fine, fuel cost justifies their armour and ability, tho they need to be louder. I can never hear them

Above are the thread names, with my post in that thread, because I'm a biased axis fanboy right....