Enough is enough, fix the volks

I love the fact Blizzard actually supports their games and and make speedy/intelligent balance choices.

You'll never see that in Relic. Then again, they don't have a 200k playerbase / $4billion net worth.

Well, to be fair, SC2 is 'easier' to balance. SC2 has a fairly big Esport scene where there are many pro player who can give their imput on game balance. They also have no shortage of pro-vs-pro replays and data to balance their game on. They also have the budget to crank out new and better balanced maps every season.

In theory and in practice. I can show you videos of 2 double zook riflemen killing an okw p4 just as quickly as 2 schrek volks. It works. Not to mention rifles have a snare.

The point is really that, when volks have schreks, their AI isn't that great, so that's your opportunity to win infantry engagements. I testws double zook riflemen against a schrek volk and they lose at long range but win more often than they lose at mid range, I have video proof. Now imagine double bar vet 3 riflemen against volks, they maybe lose a model in that engagement. Same with IS with double brens, even vet 3 cons, etc.

Like I said, before, more than happy to hop in a game and test this with anyone. I'll admit I'm wrong if you can show me. I even have some video of some of these matchups I tried in the cheatmod.

I'm sure if you have the p4 stand there and forced to duke it now, the AT infantry would win.

From a team game perspective, if i have 2-3+ whatever number of volks, I can simply move in, unload a volley of shreks full frontal armor penetration and quickly retreat if there are a lot AI around.
With zooks, I'm more likely to bounce shot because the range/low pen. If i could, i'd rather trade 2 zooks for 1 panzershrek.
Again, this is just a team game perspective where all of a sudden a second enemy or third enemy force shows up, and by the time you react, at least one vehicle is gone.
For 1v1, i don't think it's that big an issue.

So i don't mind volks having double panzershreks. make their pen/range same as zook.
So the key difference is the surprise shreks can do. Pop around a corner, shoot a volley, and retreat to forward base. Zooks can do that too... but a lot less effective. They need to be in closer range to be effective which defines its role well as defensive. I just think the panzershrek is both offensive and defensively capable.

Bullshit. There is a Video from Cpt price where a kt drove into a blob of zooks. It didnt survived the second volley
Please dont write you own, twisted, opinion, down and try to fake them as facts. Since the patch okw has a less winrate then the average on the chartsite in 1v1 and 2v2. And 1v1 should be all we looking at in terms of balance (esl).

Holy hell, one video of either ridiculous RNG (since zooks have a less than 30% chance of penetrating the KT from the front, and something like 50% from the rear, and need about 20 hits to kill a KT) or someone using their KT very, very wrong. That'll put me in my place. Try to do that with any consistency and see where that gets you.

@ZeaviS: since shrecks deal more damage and have vastly more pen than zooks, that situation can only possibly work if the zooks shoot at the P4's rear all the time. They have less than 60% chance to pen from the front IIRC. Whereas shrecks have a close to 90% I believe. And shooting in the rear is a very rare situation if your opponent doesn't suck. In a slugfest from the front, which is what happens in actual games, the dual shrecks are far more dangerous.

Volks actually have decent AI with shrecks. Not great, but about as good as conscripts. Keep them in cover and, thanks to their toughness, they can stay in the fight and rake in some kills. That's on top of their good grenade. The trade-off to get it isn't very big, unlike say PGrens with shrecks that lose 50% of their already so-so AI damage.

And I sure hope upgraded AI infantry with vet kills a hugely versatile, cheaper infantry. OKW has 5 flavors of elite infantry, counting doctrines, and their vehicles have no lack of AI power between the Luchs, P4, Stuka and KT. Not sure what this has got to do with the topic, but Volks aren't mean to beat rifles on their own.

@ZeaviS: since shrecks deal more damage and have vastly more pen than zooks, that situation can only possibly work if the zooks shoot at the P4's rear all the time. They have less than 60% chance to pen from the front IIRC. Whereas shrecks have a close to 90% I believe. And shooting in the rear is a very rare situation if your opponent doesn't suck. In a slugfest from the front, which is what happens in actual games, the dual shrecks are far more dangerous.

Nope, it's from the front. Here I made some videos for you.

https://vid.me/jYE2 okw p4 with no mg upgrade vs 2 rifle squads with double zooks

https://vid.me/SslM same as above

https://vid.me/Bi8F same as above except now the okw p4 has the MG upgrade, wanted to see if it made a difference

https://vid.me/r8VE same as above, okw p4 with mg

Now here are some vids of 2 volks with schreks vs a sherman:

https://vid.me/hTzs a sherman with no mg using AP rounds

https://vid.me/GqJJ same as above except sherman is using HE rounds

https://vid.me/HEYx same as above

https://vid.me/OY61 back to sherman with AP rounds, volks got RNGed pretty hard here

https://vid.me/c1Sd same as above

You'll notice that all the vids are around the same length, between 30 and 40 seconds ish, except for that one video of the volks getting hit by the RNG gods, and that one with the HE rounds.

Let me know if you need more video evidence or if there are any other scenarios you want me to try out.


Just for fun, I made this video, this was the first try:

https://vid.me/k8JD 4 double zook riflemen squads against a king tiger with no mg upgrade.

Volks actually have decent AI with shrecks. Not great, but about as good as conscripts. Keep them in cover and, thanks to their toughness, they can stay in the fight and rake in some kills. That's on top of their good grenade. The trade-off to get it isn't very big, unlike say PGrens with shrecks that lose 50% of their already so-so AI damage.

And I sure hope upgraded AI infantry with vet kills a hugely versatile, cheaper infantry. OKW has 5 flavors of elite infantry, counting doctrines, and their vehicles have no lack of AI power between the Luchs, P4, Stuka and KT. Not sure what this has got to do with the topic, but Volks aren't mean to beat rifles on their own.

It's relevant because the thread is about volks blobs being op. But they aren't, because even stock infantry can kill them when they are equipped with schreks, you can test it yourself, even cons beat them pretty handily when both are max vet. I just don't think it's that big of a deal to handle. I'm not trying to say volks blobs are bad, I'm trying to say they are not OP.

I'm sure if you have the p4 stand there and forced to duke it now, the AT infantry would win.

From a team game perspective, if i have 2-3+ whatever number of volks, I can simply move in, unload a volley of shreks full frontal armor penetration and quickly retreat if there are a lot AI around.
With zooks, I'm more likely to bounce shot because the range/low pen. If i could, i'd rather trade 2 zooks for 1 panzershrek.
Again, this is just a team game perspective where all of a sudden a second enemy or third enemy force shows up, and by the time you react, at least one vehicle is gone.
For 1v1, i don't think it's that big an issue.

So i don't mind volks having double panzershreks. make their pen/range same as zook.
So the key difference is the surprise shreks can do. Pop around a corner, shoot a volley, and retreat to forward base. Zooks can do that too... but a lot less effective. They need to be in closer range to be effective which defines its role well as defensive. I just think the panzershrek is both offensive and defensively capable.

I think that's a fair point, but I'd say it goes both ways. Let's take your example, 3 squads of volks schrek turn the corner and shoot at a sherman, that's a 360 damage, little bit more than half health, so you retreat, and this is assuming all shots hit.

Counter example, 3 rifle squads with double zooks turn the corner and find an okw p4 and fire, so that's 6 bazooka shots, let's say half pen, that's 3 * 80 = 240 damage + 3 * 20 deflection damage = 300 total damage, so about 45% ish life. The p4 will still want to retreat, difference here, maybe one of the rifles is vet1, and attempts to snare, if it hits, p4 is screwed, if not it gets away and we're back to similar outcomes as with the volks and sherman.

I would argue, volks need that shock value because OKW doesn't have a non-doctrinal snare and raketens have relatively low range compared to other AT guns, so it kind of fits with their army composition.

And yes I'm talking from a team game perspective as well.

Just some input of the videos above - the cost difference between 2 volks with shreks and 2 rm with double zooks should be considered, as well as the cost and armor difference of the targets. It makes it harder to draw conclusions when comparing them in a vacuum like that.

Nope, it's from the front. Here I made some videos for you.

https://vid.me/jYE2 okw p4 with no mg upgrade vs 2 rifle squads with double zooks

https://vid.me/SslM same as above

https://vid.me/Bi8F same as above except now the okw p4 has the MG upgrade, wanted to see if it made a difference

https://vid.me/r8VE same as above, okw p4 with mg

Now here are some vids of 2 volks with schreks vs a sherman:

https://vid.me/hTzs a sherman with no mg using AP rounds

https://vid.me/GqJJ same as above except sherman is using HE rounds

https://vid.me/HEYx same as above

https://vid.me/OY61 back to sherman with AP rounds, volks got RNGed pretty hard here

https://vid.me/c1Sd same as above

You'll notice that all the vids are around the same length, between 30 and 40 seconds ish, except for that one video of the volks getting hit by the RNG gods, and that one with the HE rounds.

Let me know if you need more video evidence or if there are any other scenarios you want me to try out.


Just for fun, I made this video, this was the first try:

https://vid.me/k8JD 4 double zook riflemen squads against a king tiger with no mg upgrade.



It's relevant because the thread is about volks blobs being op. But they aren't, because even stock infantry can kill them when they are equipped with schreks, you can test it yourself, even cons beat them pretty handily when both are max vet. I just don't think it's that big of a deal to handle. I'm not trying to say volks blobs are bad, I'm trying to say they are not OP.

Thanks for the videos!

Just some input of the videos above - the cost difference between 2 volks with shreks and 2 rm with double zooks should be considered, as well as the cost and armor difference of the targets. It makes it harder to draw conclusions when comparing them in a vacuum like that.

Agreed. Also the fact that there is zero micro happening in these videos, like whitesky mentioned, a tank probably wouldn't just sit there and fight an AT squad head on like that and not attempt a retreat.

Here are the costs:

double rifleman + double zooks = 560 mp and 200 munitions

double volks + schreks = 500 mp and 180 minitions


okw p4 = 360 mp + 150 fuel 640 health with 234 front armor and 80 rear

sherman = 340 mp + 110 fuel 640 health with 160 front armor and 80 rear

You'll notice that all the vids are around the same length, between 30 and 40 seconds ish, except for that one video of the volks getting hit by the RNG gods, and that one with the HE rounds.

Let me know if you need more video evidence or if there are any other scenarios you want me to try out.


Just for fun, I made this video, this was the first try:

https://vid.me/k8JD 4 double zook riflemen squads against a king tiger with no mg upgrade.



It's relevant because the thread is about volks blobs being op. But they aren't, because even stock infantry can kill them when they are equipped with schreks, you can test it yourself, even cons beat them pretty handily when both are max vet. I just don't think it's that big of a deal to handle. I'm not trying to say volks blobs are bad, I'm trying to say they are not OP.

Nice videos (even if testing in a vacuum never tells the whole story; for instance, almost all the zook videos had RNG and pentrated more than 60% of the time) but couple points;

I don't think shreck blobs are OP. I think they are way too omnipresent because Volks are badly designed. Regardless of balance, the best AT weapon in the game doesn't belong on a cheap mainline infantry, even moreso because it requires no tech unlock. It leads to a stale metagame where the same multi-purpose unit is always fielded and always upgraded because it has almost no downsides. I dislike playing against OKW mainly because of that.

The results are decently similar on medium tanks; I'd like to see what pitting them against heavier armor does. Say shrecks vs Pershing/Churchill and zooks vs Panther/Tiger. And then for fun's sake 5-6 shrecks vs IS-2.

And zooks are US. As I've said, I believe WFA factions benefit from power creep in their design and are allowed to get toys that are just better than a lot of what other factions field. Not that I think factions should be homogenous, but the fact that these things work doesn't mean I think they should work, if I express myself correctly.

Also at least zooks require an upgrade and dual zook rifles are fairly impotent against infantry. You are severely hamstringing your AI capabilities if you don't give rifles upgrades. They also cost more than volks, and OKW's chronical MP float means that they can more easily afford elite infantry on top of shreck volks, US doesn't always have that luxury. That's why zook blobs are way less common than shreck blobs.

Yeah, the real problem with schreks on volks is that there isn't really an AI vs. AT tradeoff; they're still pretty good against infantry, especially with vet, but they are also deadly against vehicles.

The solution should be 3 parts: a nondoctrinal MG, an AI upgrade for volks (perhaps MP44 or something similar to tradeoff long range for short range DPS), and "tank buster stormtroopers" or something like that.

Nice videos (even if testing in a vacuum never tells the whole story; for instance, almost all the zook videos had RNG and pentrated more than 60% of the time) but couple points;

I agree, doesn't tell the whole story, but the results are interesting.

Actually, because of the sound not working, it's hard to tell, but there are a lot of deflections in the videos. So the deflection damage is doing a lot of work. If you look closely at the last 2 videos, I turned on the health monitor thing. Basically, you'll see a number pop up on the p4 indicating how much damage it just took.

So for reference, on the last video https://vid.me/r8VE I counted 5 penetration shots, 12 deflections and 3 misses. The 5 penetration shots would be 400 damage, + 12 * 20 = 240 damage = dead p4. So that's a 33% pen rate. With 110 pen at long range vs 234 armor = 47% in best case scenario, I think rng hurt that test case and yet still took around 35 seconds to kill it. I think I turned that health monitor on half way through making the vids, so maybe the first few in each set don't have it on but the rest do. Check it out again and you'll see.

I don't think shreck blobs are OP. I think they are way too omnipresent because Volks are badly designed. Regardless of balance, the best AT weapon in the game doesn't belong on a cheap mainline infantry, even moreso because it requires no tech unlock. It leads to a stale metagame where the same multi-purpose unit is always fielded and always upgraded because it has almost no downsides. I dislike playing against OKW mainly because of that.

I half disagree. The downside is that they are weak vs other infantry squads. I agree that they are omnipresent, but that's under the, in my opinion, false premise that it's the only way to play them.

For example, here is vet 3 cons walking up to vet 5 volks with schrek and engaging at mid range with no cover and no other micro:

https://vid.me/yOsO

Like you said above, it's a test case in a vacuum, and I'd probably need more just to eliminate some RNG. Imagine the above video with riflemen + bars, or IS + brens.

The results are decently similar on medium tanks; I'd like to see what pitting them against heavier armor does. Say shrecks vs Pershing/Churchill and zooks vs Panther/Tiger. And then for fun's sake 5-6 shrecks vs IS-2.

Sure, I can do that. You want the same squad composition? 2 rifles with double zooks vs and 2 volks with schreks vs?

Here is 5 volks squads with schreks vs an IS-2 with mg upgrade:

https://vid.me/UOrN

And zooks are US. As I've said, I believe WFA factions benefit from power creep in their design and are allowed to get toys that are just better than a lot of what other factions field. Not that I think factions should be homogenous, but the fact that these things work doesn't mean I think they should work, if I express myself correctly.

Not sure what you mean in that last sentence. In terms of other allied factions, I think piats are highly underrated. I could make some vids using them too if you'd like. Soviet's don't really have anything other than ptrs, but I don't really think they need it. They can get AT guns right away, plus su-76s being really damn good now.

Also at least zooks require an upgrade and dual zook rifles are fairly impotent against infantry. You are severely hamstringing your AI capabilities if you don't give rifles upgrades. They also cost more than volks, and OKW's chronical MP float means that they can more easily afford elite infantry on top of shreck volks, US doesn't always have that luxury. That's why zook blobs are way less common than shreck blobs.

That's fair, I did some tests, and double rifle zooks even out with volks with schrek at mid range, but will lose usually at long range.

Also, US doesn't need elite infantry, okw does, that's why obers are non-doctrinal. I'd say zook blobs are less common because people think zooks are trash, not to mention is just being a bad strategy in general, in my opinion.

Agreed. Also the fact that there is zero micro happening in these videos, like whitesky mentioned, a tank probably wouldn't just sit there and fight an AT squad head on like that and not attempt a retreat.

If this was microed, the schreks would do even worse. The shreks fire much less frequently and their accuracy is horrible as you can see in the videos. You have to factor EVERYTHING into a comparison, not just saying its got better penetration and slightly better damage so therefore its better.

And when do we address other inequalities such as the mortars of the russians having 6 men vs the isg having 4 and not being able to retreat? If you'd like I can go and tune my violin for you. For somber music as you feel sorry for yourself.

It really doesn't look as bad as some people are making it out to be, just a bit different, I like that different factions play different.

If this was microed, the schreks would do even worse. The shreks fire much less frequently and their accuracy is horrible as you can see in the videos. You have to factor EVERYTHING into a comparison, not just saying its got better penetration and slightly better damage so therefore its better.

He didn't state that the schrek is better, he simply made a comparison in a vacuum stating that the results are interesting but not telling the whole story.

And when do we address other inequalities such as the mortars of the russians having 6 men vs the isg having 4 and not being able to retreat?

Make a thread for it, it's not relevant here.

only big issue with OKW is their insane early game power. Assuming your not spamming Maxims, there is virtually nothing you can do if the OKW wants your cut off or fuel, which is pretty bad. You either take it back after being negative in the exchange of MP, or rush a light vehicle.

Yeah, the real problem with schreks on volks is that there isn't really an AI vs. AT tradeoff; they're still pretty good against infantry, especially with vet, but they are also deadly against vehicles.
.

Ok this shit really needs to stop. volks have decent AI but no upgrades and their vet is TERRIBLE.
vet 3 scripts rifles and is will mop the floor with them. also for the love of god put the zooks on the RE's

Spamming units is prominent in all faction and is pritty much the meta at the moment.Is extremely frustrating loosing to player the just units with bazookas and lmg's

As UKF you need just 2 mg and a mortar pit and it's gg for OKW 90% of the time.1 stuka can't kill the mortar pit fast enough,2 ieig 18 will always lose to mortar pit range,damage and accuracy.I don't think USF have a big problem with shrek blobs because of the upgraded and superior rifleman reaping volks.

As UKF you need just 2 mg and a mortar pit and it's gg for OKW 90% of the time.1 stuka can't kill the mortar pit fast enough,2 ieig 18 will always lose to mortar pit range,damage and accuracy.I don't think USF have a big problem with shrek blobs because of the upgraded and superior rifleman reaping volks.

I really think you're overestimating what UKFs mgs and the Mortar pit can do. It's not that easy for Brits, especially when a fast Luchs suddenly appears.

Ok this shit really needs to stop. volks have decent AI but no upgrades and their vet is TERRIBLE.
vet 3 scripts rifles and is will mop the floor with them. also for the love of god put the zooks on the RE's

Slow down! I agree, which is why I specified the nondoctrinal MG and the AI-focused weapon upgrade. As lanciano wrote, spamming is just the current meta, and it's arguably more frustrating to deal with Allied infantry spam as OKW, precisely for this reason. The only upside to volks spam is that they can't be bullied around by vehicles, and from fairly early on (~4 minute mark). But otherwise Allied spam is just as cancerous as volks spam. I see the root of that problem in a lack of reliable suppression platforms for OKW, especially after they changed the Kubel (for the better I think). A decent nondoctrinal MG would give OKW a way to deal with blobs, an AI weapon upgrade for volks would keep them at least somewhat competitive as the game goes on, and a tank buster squad would preserve Axis' handheld AT superiority, which like it or not is clearly a cornerstone of the overall game design.