Enough is enough, fix the volks

Reason why I used the word "reasonable" and not "out right beat". But that exactly the problem, for me to gain a "advantage"I would need to spend 150 m and 15 fuel + 60 mun at the rate 280mp per rifle, at the cost of 28 to reinforce.

If I "won" a engagement with rifle+bar engagement I will not doubtfuly lose a single model in BEST case scenario, not accounting the lucky instant Rng K.O of a model by shrecks shot and the destruction of cover usually needed by allue squads to remain vaible.

Typically since the only unit that can at engage at long range as allie is the IS, rifle need to close the gap in "mid" range which often results in a lost of a model to get in position. Not only the mp bleed of rifles and IS high, even a "victory" engagement is costly.

NOW all that is FINE since we are going with the whole "Nazi Germany super army" theme that we are fanscinated now a days (which of course comes at the cost of reality).

The problem is to counter infantry play is the usage of vehicles and it becomes a huge problem with you equip a rather cheap squad, tier 1 and most importantly (problem is not the weapon, it's how many available) the spambility of the the weapon with no real downside.

Unlike a popular counter-argument (barely qualifies but it's there) the zook has clear disadvantages, mainly lack of damage (80dmg vs 120 dmg) lack of range and most importantly lack of penetration, which is key.

As it stands there is no real reason to build any other type of unit the volks + armor vehicles your choice due to cost per effect meta. Not they are "great" (unless your referring to super volks of days past) But cost effective...

Thus the superman comment, lack of any real down side, cheap, available early and reasonably effect all target types seems super to me...

This!

I've given up! It is long time since i last cared about a RTS, but seriously this community. Relic shouldn't look to us for balance. It is clear that CoH got one of the most Biased player groups to either side. It is fucking sickining and i don't think anything can be done about it. As long as people keep deviding themselves up in only axis or allies players and refuse to try playing as the other side there won't be anything to gain. Ost has some problem so does okw so does every fucking faction but the way people often present it. makes it nonconstructive

I've given up! It is long time since i last cared about a RTS, but seriously this community. Relic shouldn't look to us for balance. It is clear that CoH got one of the most Biased player groups to either side. It is fucking sickining and i don't think anything can be done about it. As long as people keep deviding themselves up in only axis or allies players and refuse to try playing as the other side there won't be anything to gain. Ost has some problem so does okw so does every fucking faction but the way people often present it. makes it nonconstructive

good summary of the issue on here and on the official forums. There is about a 3:1 volk complaint to rifle complaint ratio. Truth be told both have the very similar issues.

Well not exactly. Baring the RNG of schreks, riles beat volks without upgrades at all ranges, assuming equals levels of vet and even more so when rifles are vet3. Bars and lmgs just make it even more favorable. I'd be more than happy to test this out with you if you wish.

The counter argument with zooks is fair because you can buy 2 for 100 munition, where a single schrek costs 90. So while the pen is less, you're doing 160 damage vs 120 and they fire faster, and they are on a squad that is more durable.

well your wrong, but i like your attempt to reason it

Well not exactly. Baring the RNG of schreks, riles beat volks without upgrades at all ranges, assuming equals levels of vet and even more so when rifles are vet3. Bars and lmgs just make it even more favorable. I'd be more than happy to test this out with you if you wish.

The counter argument with zooks is fair because you can buy 2 for 100 munition, where a single schrek costs 90. So while the pen is less, you're doing 160 damage vs 120 and they fire faster, and they are on a squad that is more durable.

That's in theory.

In practice, the zook's pen is so shit that even against P4 it has trouble penetrating front armor (that's before vet and stacked bulletins). Anything Panther or bigger can safely ignore all but an entire blobful of zooks. Shrecks easily pen all but the very heaviest ally armor (IS-2, Churchill) on the front quite easily. Higher damage means little if you can't actually penetrate and use it.

2 zooks also sink a squad's DPS more than 1 zook or 1 shreck, so a rifle squad with 2 zooks will have mediocre DPS even at vet 3 against infantry. Wouldn't be surprised if vet 5 Volks with shrecks win vs vet 3 rifles with dual zooks.

And zooks are on one allied faction, behind an unlock. Soviets make do with PTRS which is doctrinal and sucks against anything but 222s, and british has the PIATs which you have to actively micro so they hit the broad side of a King Tiger, and even then it's a coin flip. Ostheer gets shrecks on a 340 MP 4 man tier 2 squad in an upgrade that changes their role dramatically, so that's very fine. OKW gets shrecks on their 250 MP 5 man mainline infantry and it's not even locked behind tech so there's no reason not to have every Volk squad with one as soon as you get the muni. It's not a role change, it is a straigth upgrade that allows Volks to be the most versatile infantry in the game, even more than Guards whose entire thing is to be versatile.

Handheld AT weapons are not balanced except by cost, and not very well at that. Perhaps by design, Shrecks are better than allied options in 90% of situations. There's a very good reason shreck blobs are a thing, while PTRS and PIAT blobs are never seen and zook blobs only work against bad players. The panzershreck is uncontestably the king of handheld AT. As such, it should be a specialized weapon with drawbacks. The Ostheer shreck acts like that. The OKW shreck doesn't.

Volks themselves aren't the real problem, it's the dumb scaling and safe transition massing them gives you.

You can't mass conscripts without seriously crippling your timing on vehicles, and they need upgrades to be researched, chewing away at ~3min worth of manpower income alone away from your other tech.

Volks upgrades are all unlocked for free as part of the standard tech path, so you can freely invest all your MP without worrying about being punished for it. If you build 5+ Cons as Soviets and lose the early engagement, your game is basically done - if you build 5+ Volks and lose the early engagement, it's fine because Allies can't punish you much if you pull back and camp on your gas with schrecks/flak HQ.

OKW tech needs to be delayed substantially - if their early game is going to be buffed to Soviet levels, their mid/late game shouldn't be as easily accessible as it is.

This!

Axis fanboi alert!

i'll gladly trade 2 zooks for 1 panzershrek.
OKW can build 2 zooks with 100 muni and USF can get 1 shrek with 90 muni.
Trade agreed!

I guarantee that Axis will cry if this is implemented.

Axis fanboi alert!

i'll gladly trade 2 zooks for 1 panzershrek.
OKW can build 2 zooks with 100 muni and USF can get 1 shrek with 90 muni.
Trade agreed!

I guarantee that Axis will cry if this is implemented.

of course man. axis players want all the benefits Allied factions have but cry when Allied players want some of the Axis abilities.

When I see schreck blob running agasint my Sherman, KV or IS, Im a bit scared.
When I see bazooka blob running agasint my Pz4, Panther or Tiger, I laugh.

And... What if you see a PIAT blob?

I tried it for a couple of times... and it actually kinda works.
If your inf is somewhat vetted and you have like... 6-8 PIAT's,(2 squads with 2piat's, 2 squads with piat+bren) you will kill the enemy tanks most of the time (as long as they dont try to ram your inf/run from you... as long as they're somewhat static). MP bleed would be a bit harsh (150-200 MP), but #worthit for me.

Maybe I was just lucky enough.

And volks need to be changed. Somehow. Because 5 vet system + schreck + decent AI capabilities make them a bit too strong. Only slight adjustments here will do. (Or cutting them up into 2 individual squads, but I dont see it as a real way either)

UKF has heavy MP bleed. 26/28 reinforce with 4 model squads? Sure they work great if they hit a static target. I always use attack ground. artillery of any type is pretty devastating against it. and it's not an easy right-click and auto-aim/snipe AT shot. If you spend that much munitions on piat... how will you stop volk, ober, fallschim, fus infantry blob? UKF doesn't have any viable counter blob artillery.

The main problem I face in 1v1 with USF vs OKW is that OKW just get too many 'bonuses'. By bonuses I mean things like free flame nade unlock with tech. The OKW have many of these.
- Bonus starting manpower
- AT gun and light vehicle in T0
- Free medics, repair station, and cut-off/fuel protector as part of tech
- Free flame nades as part of tech
- Free Panzerschreck upgrade as part of tech
- Extra vet

These were fine when OKW still had a resource penalty, but now they are just too much. On top of this OKW has a very fast light tank rush with very large shock value. USF just can't deal with this.

oh my people are so focus on other factions that dont see their "favorite" faction stong points.

well your wrong, but i like your attempt to reason it

Care to elaborate? I'm more than happy to hop on a game with you and test if you wish.

That's in theory.

In practice, the zook's pen is so shit that even against P4 it has trouble penetrating front armor (that's before vet and stacked bulletins). Anything Panther or bigger can safely ignore all but an entire blobful of zooks. Shrecks easily pen all but the very heaviest ally armor (IS-2, Churchill) on the front quite easily. Higher damage means little if you can't actually penetrate and use it.

2 zooks also sink a squad's DPS more than 1 zook or 1 shreck, so a rifle squad with 2 zooks will have mediocre DPS even at vet 3 against infantry. Wouldn't be surprised if vet 5 Volks with shrecks win vs vet 3 rifles with dual zooks.

And zooks are on one allied faction, behind an unlock. Soviets make do with PTRS which is doctrinal and sucks against anything but 222s, and british has the PIATs which you have to actively micro so they hit the broad side of a King Tiger, and even then it's a coin flip. Ostheer gets shrecks on a 340 MP 4 man tier 2 squad in an upgrade that changes their role dramatically, so that's very fine. OKW gets shrecks on their 250 MP 5 man mainline infantry and it's not even locked behind tech so there's no reason not to have every Volk squad with one as soon as you get the muni. It's not a role change, it is a straigth upgrade that allows Volks to be the most versatile infantry in the game, even more than Guards whose entire thing is to be versatile.

Handheld AT weapons are not balanced except by cost, and not very well at that. Perhaps by design, Shrecks are better than allied options in 90% of situations. There's a very good reason shreck blobs are a thing, while PTRS and PIAT blobs are never seen and zook blobs only work against bad players. The panzershreck is uncontestably the king of handheld AT. As such, it should be a specialized weapon with drawbacks. The Ostheer shreck acts like that. The OKW shreck doesn't.

In theory and in practice. I can show you videos of 2 double zook riflemen killing an okw p4 just as quickly as 2 schrek volks. It works. Not to mention rifles have a snare.

The point is really that, when volks have schreks, their AI isn't that great, so that's your opportunity to win infantry engagements. I testws double zook riflemen against a schrek volk and they lose at long range but win more often than they lose at mid range, I have video proof. Now imagine double bar vet 3 riflemen against volks, they maybe lose a model in that engagement. Same with IS with double brens, even vet 3 cons, etc.

Like I said, before, more than happy to hop in a game and test this with anyone. I'll admit I'm wrong if you can show me. I even have some video of some of these matchups I tried in the cheatmod.

The main problem I face in 1v1 with USF vs OKW is that OKW just get too many 'bonuses'. By bonuses I mean things like free flame nade unlock with tech. The OKW have many of these.
- Bonus starting manpower
- AT gun and light vehicle in T0
- Free medics, repair station, and cut-off/fuel protector as part of tech
- Free flame nades as part of tech
- Free Panzerschreck upgrade as part of tech
- Extra vet

These were fine when OKW still had a resource penalty, but now they are just too much. On top of this OKW has a very fast light tank rush with very large shock value. USF just can't deal with this.

A well micro'd AAHT can keep you away from them also, no luch needed.

That's in theory.

In practice, the zook's pen is so shit that even against P4 it has trouble penetrating front armor (that's before vet and stacked bulletins). Anything Panther or bigger can safely ignore all but an entire blobful of zooks. Shrecks easily pen all but the very heaviest ally armor (IS-2, Churchill) on the front quite easily. Higher damage means little if you can't actually penetrate and use it.

2 zooks also sink a squad's DPS more than 1 zook or 1 shreck, so a rifle squad with 2 zooks will have mediocre DPS even at vet 3 against infantry. Wouldn't be surprised if vet 5 Volks with shrecks win vs vet 3 rifles with dual zooks.

And zooks are on one allied faction, behind an unlock. Soviets make do with PTRS which is doctrinal and sucks against anything but 222s, and british has the PIATs which you have to actively micro so they hit the broad side of a King Tiger, and even then it's a coin flip. Ostheer gets shrecks on a 340 MP 4 man tier 2 squad in an upgrade that changes their role dramatically, so that's very fine. OKW gets shrecks on their 250 MP 5 man mainline infantry and it's not even locked behind tech so there's no reason not to have every Volk squad with one as soon as you get the muni. It's not a role change, it is a straigth upgrade that allows Volks to be the most versatile infantry in the game, even more than Guards whose entire thing is to be versatile.

Handheld AT weapons are not balanced except by cost, and not very well at that. Perhaps by design, Shrecks are better than allied options in 90% of situations. There's a very good reason shreck blobs are a thing, while PTRS and PIAT blobs are never seen and zook blobs only work against bad players. The panzershreck is uncontestably the king of handheld AT. As such, it should be a specialized weapon with drawbacks. The Ostheer shreck acts like that. The OKW shreck doesn't.

Bullshit. There is a Video from Cpt price where a kt drove into a blob of zooks. It didnt survived the second volley
Please dont write you own, twisted, opinion, down and try to fake them as facts. Since the patch okw has a less winrate then the average on the chartsite in 1v1 and 2v2. And 1v1 should be all we looking at in terms of balance (esl).

Bullshit. There is a Video from Cpt price where a kt drove into a blob of zooks. It didnt survived the second volley
Please dont write you own, twisted, opinion, down and try to fake them as facts. Since the patch okw has a less winrate then the average on the chartsite in 1v1 and 2v2. And 1v1 should be all we looking at in terms of balance (esl).

so u saying a kt with 1280hp needing 16 penetrating zooka hits to destroy it was killed in 2 volley?

to pen, a zooka has 110 at far and 130 at near of pen value vs a frontal armour of 375. that means a zooka has 29% chance to pen from the front from far and 34.6% up close, so you are saying there were 55/46 zooka shots fired in 2 volleys?

or a more plasusible scenario would be rear armour hits. up close its 130/225, a cool 57% chance to pen. so there was at least 28 shots fired in 2 volleys?

was rng involved? or was the KT already heavily damaged?

I love the fact Blizzard actually supports their games and and make speedy/intelligent balance choices.

You'll never see that in Relic. Then again, they don't have a 200k playerbase / $4billion net worth.

1) Zooks are actually pretty good at least since the December patch (there was a stretch where I didn't play much so I can't say exactly when they started being good). But yes I have lost or nearly lost several PIVs to zooks, thinking they were the same peashooters as before. Not the case. Seriously if you haven't played with zooks in a while, try them. You will be pleasantly surprised.

2) I agree with the general thrust of the complaints about volks. However, allied infantry spam is *AT LEAST* as frustrating, the only reason it isn't a complete disaster is because yes, there is more of a tradeoff between AI and AT. Luchs is decent but won't really shut down blobs as long as there is any AT in the vicinity (or vehicle snares). Stuka zu Fuss is literally hit-and-miss, doesn't suppress, takes a while to cool down, etc. AAHT actually works fairly well, but it costs a decent amount of fuel, is fragile, and requires T1.

3) So what I would say is volks can and should lose schrecks, but *ONLY* if OKW gets a decent nondoctrinal MG to deal with Allied infantry blobs, especially in the early game. Maybe the MG34 is fine, just buff its suppression a bit and raise its cost to, say, 240.

4) I support the creation of a dedicated "Tank Buster" type squad to carry schrecks, but am open to other ideas.