Do you prefer the "new" OKW or the "original" OKW?

New OKW is much better. They are kinda broken right now and need further adjustments, but I like the direction they are taking reworking some of the old units that were just annoying to play against.

I like the new OKW but I think the Panzer IV and maybe Panther could be adjusted to better fit within the new framework, as they're so easily accessible. They could also gate the Panther and Tiger II behind an upgrade, and make the Tiger II once per game like the Tiger Ace.

I still think the MG 34 needs to be non-doctrine, and the Panzerschreck should be moved to a standalone Panzerschreck Team. Volksgrenadiers could be given an MP 40 upgrade and Panzerfaust (no critical, maybe even skillshot).

Dont know yet, would give it some more time.

Currently its a bit of opieOP, and adjustments are needed, but overall feels it like a step in the right direction.

but stahp flaming me for wiping your blobs with demos, it makes me sad panda ;-;

The mindbaffling thing is you guys always make it sound as if you would always play the same way, trying to drive into OKW and suddenly discovering that he actually has some Schrecks. This bullshit about being able to "brawl" has to stop as well, when they still only have rifles that are doing the same damage now as let's say those of Riflemen. What exactly is so hard with stopping a 5-6 Volks blob, please enlighten me. No smoke, no suppression resistance or even suppression break, no assault rifles, no sprint, no vehicle snare. What on earth are you doing when you complain about a Schreck blob. A single MG is enough to stop them. Spreading out your Riflemen which are upgraded with BARs or M1919s for 60/70 munitions each against a blob of Volks which are upgraded with a 90 munitions Schreck can't be that hard, can it?

There is no way in hell Volks with Schrecks outperform Riflemen with LMGs or BARs. Do you actually know what the easiest way to play an RTS like CoH2 is? Blobbing, because you can temporarily overpower certain stuff while keeping your army easy to navigate. Do you know what the easiest thing to counter is in an RTS like CoH2? Blobbing. Your opponent has the majority of his army in one place while you are free to be active at other places, with some micro management required. A single HMG suppresses the blob and forces it to retreat. There is no Oorah or Fireup, Volks just lay down on the ground and pray for the bullets to stop flying. Keep your vehicle(s) at max distance. I know that USF vehicles suck against infantry compared to the OKW FlakHT and Luchs, but please...

Holy shit, this is really getting hilarious.

You'll never get through to the team game crowd here. Most people that build MG's just put them in a building and forget about them.

I still think the MG 34 needs to be non-doctrine

I think battle and shwere should be moved at base sector. Remove pop out elite infantry, rng to stuka barrage and reinforce should cost 30 mp for volks for others higher.

What do ya think?

I think battle and shwere should be moved at base sector. Remove pop out elite infantry, rng to stuka barrage and reinforce should cost 30 mp for volks for others higher.

Not sure what you mean by "remove pop out elite infantry, rng to stuka barrage", but putting Battlegroup in HQ would make the forward reinforcement point useless. 30MP for Volks will only work if Volks are actually really good, 30MP is the cost of Grenadiers and Soviet Guards.

Not sure what you mean by "remove pop out elite infantry, rng to stuka barrage", but putting Battlegroup in HQ would make the forward reinforcement point useless. 30MP for Volks will only work if Volks are actually really good, 30MP is the cost of Grenadiers and Soviet Guards.

I believe some one was snidely insinuating to turn OKW into Wehrmacht.

The new OKW is a better platform to work on and change than the old OKW.

The mindbaffling thing is you guys always make it sound as if you would always play the same way, trying to drive into OKW and suddenly discovering that he actually has some Schrecks. This bullshit about being able to "brawl" has to stop as well, when they still only have rifles that are doing the same damage now as let's say those of Riflemen. What exactly is so hard with stopping a 5-6 Volks blob, please enlighten me. No smoke, no suppression resistance or even suppression break, no assault rifles, no sprint, no vehicle snare. What on earth are you doing when you complain about a Schreck blob. A single MG is enough to stop them. Spreading out your Riflemen which are upgraded with BARs or M1919s for 60/70 munitions each against a blob of Volks which are upgraded with a 90 munitions Schreck can't be that hard, can it?

There is no way in hell Volks with Schrecks outperform Riflemen with LMGs or BARs. Do you actually know what the easiest way to play an RTS like CoH2 is? Blobbing, because you can temporarily overpower certain stuff while keeping your army easy to navigate. Do you know what the easiest thing to counter is in an RTS like CoH2? Blobbing. Your opponent has the majority of his army in one place while you are free to be active at other places, with some micro management required. A single HMG suppresses the blob and forces it to retreat. There is no Oorah or Fireup, Volks just lay down on the ground and pray for the bullets to stop flying. Keep your vehicle(s) at max distance. I know that USF vehicles suck against infantry compared to the OKW FlakHT and Luchs, but please...

Holy shit, this is really getting hilarious.

The statistics have shown that it is difficult past emotional, contrived, anecdotal evidence.

Also I don't have problems with volks "blobs" I have problems with good players using many volks.

Several things need to be considered and looked at in a lens more broad than rifle vs volks combat. Yes, in a straight up 1v1, or blob vs blob, bar/m1919 rifles at max vet or no vet will destroy a blob of volks. This is simply fact. There are, however, other factors that exist that determine the success of the faction and mold the dynamic between rifles and volks.

1. Volks gain veterancy faster than rifles and have lower veterancy requirements per level of vet. Because they have the shreck upgrades, volks farm damage off of vehicles and level up vet at an alarming rate. Volks need 2400 exp to reach vet 4 and rifles need 2576 to reach vet 3.

This means that it is not uncommon and, perhaps, likely that several volks will reach vet 4 before rifles can reach vet 3. This means that a lot of combat occurs between vet 4 volks and vet 2 rifles.

Stat comparison at those vet levels
Volks
vet 1 - -10% received accuracy
Vet 2 - 30% accuracy, -20% weapon cooldown
vet 3 - Passive healing, -10% received accuracy
vet 4 - 20% sight range, 15% accuracy

Aggregate : -20% received accuracy, 45% accuracy, passive healing, -20% weapon cooldown, 20% sight range

Rifles
vet 1 - Anti tank rifle grenade
vet 2 - -23% received accuracy, -20% weapon cooldown

Aggregate : Anti tank rifle grenade, -23% received accuracy, -20% weapon cooldown

In addition to volks having an obvious edge at this point in the battle pound for pound vs rifles, one needs to realize that long range efficacy significantly outperforms close range combat ability.

The close range dominance of rifles and concscripts become increasingly less valuable the longer a game lasts. Running into close range vs a squad of axis infantry in the early game is a useful, and efficient tactic, however, when both sides have multiple infantry, mgs, mines, vehicles that don't want to overextend or fire on the move ( and thus prefer to remain stationary to avoid AT guns / movement dps penalty), long range static fighting becomes the norm in the late game. In addition, cover is ruined by explosions so most running must occur on open field.

Whenever multiple units must run to maximise their dps in close range vs another plethora of units, the stationary ones will always win because they focus fire a running squad down that has incurred both acccuracy and cooldown penalties on the move and is experiencing little to no cover.

This means that in a late game scenario, long range, static fighting is what most fighting infantry v infantry endure. This is part of the reason why the airborne commander that captain price loves is effective, it offers two alternatives to bad close range allied infantry in the pathfinder and the LMG paratrooper who is basically a little bit worst than obersoldaten, but come earlier and are more flexible as a trade off.

One can see now that volks are more than capable of dealing with rifles in a realistic game scenario, the 45% accuracy buff vs the no accuracy buff is substantial. In terms of pure infantry to infantry combat, volks also become superior to rifles at vet 1 as they get recieved accuracy modifier vs an AT nade.

All of this comes with the fact that volks are cheaper to make and to reinforce and for early game the OKW has stronger units and better capping.

2. You said mgs counter volks, however, OKW gets faster mg than us forces through doctrinal call-in and also is very cheap on the manpower.

The difference between volks and rifles,however, is that rifles want to run in and flank to get higher close range dps compared to volks which exposes them vs mgs. Volks want to fight at range behind cover making them fundamentally less exposed to mgs all while the axis mg is easier to obtain and maintain.

3. USF has to deal with a lot of random manpower bleed from unwanted units, lieutenant, captain, and major are all situationally useless and cost 100s of manpower over a course of a battle. Note I am not claiming that these units are useless, just that they can be useless compared to volks which always have a use on the field.

4. I don't "dive" in to the OKW randomly praying he has no shrecks, the fact that he is guaranteed to have multiple shrecks makes my vehicles vulnerable to the basic OKW infantry for the entire game allowing for less harrassment room and overall less use. Compare this to the luchs which can commonly get 25+ kills even vs top 10 players because on large maps it can often roam freely and harass squads without losing literally 1/2 its health from max range.

You'll never get through to the team game crowd here. Most people that build MG's just put them in a building and forget about them.

I'm a 1v1 player

They'll certainly be easier to balance, just depending on how will they feel on the long run with med/heavy armor cost increase, we might not need to alter/remove vet5 at all.

I just wish vcoh2 armies had something going for them as in proper faction mechanic except "this one have 6 men, but they all perform like shit anyway, this one have 4th tier and upgrades on everything".

The new OKW opens more design possibilities. Now the question is what is the design direct Relic wants to follow?
So yes, so far from a balance perspective, the new OKW is better.

I would say original OKW with it's penalties and all was better. I think that if we revert to that status and make some small adjustments here and there to keep it balanced, it would be a much more interesting faction.

But unfortunately such tentative would fail, because no matter how the resource penalty system will look like, no matter how close to balance would such an OKW be, the allied fanboys will still be jalous on the efficiency of units like obersoldaten, Panther, volks, KT, and others, even if they would be ok in the meta, balancewise speaking.

So, if the majority of players are ok with the actual OKW state, we sould allow it to remain like this. But I doubt OKW will preserve even it's actual status. To many crying babies on forums.

*snip*

Thank you for your insight.

The statistics have shown that it is difficult past emotional, contrived, anecdotal evidence.

Also I don't have problems with volks "blobs" I have problems with good players using many volks.

Several things need to be considered and looked at in a lens more broad than rifle vs volks combat. Yes, in a straight up 1v1, or blob vs blob, bar/m1919 rifles at max vet or no vet will destroy a blob of volks. This is simply fact. There are, however, other factors that exist that determine the success of the faction and mold the dynamic between rifles and volks.

1. Volks gain veterancy faster than rifles and have lower veterancy requirements per level of vet. Because they have the shreck upgrades, volks farm damage off of vehicles and level up vet at an alarming rate. Volks need 2400 exp to reach vet 4 and rifles need 2576 to reach vet 3.

This means that it is not uncommon and, perhaps, likely that several volks will reach vet 4 before rifles can reach vet 3. This means that a lot of combat occurs between vet 4 volks and vet 2 rifles.

Stat comparison at those vet levels
Volks
vet 1 - -10% received accuracy
Vet 2 - 30% accuracy, -20% weapon cooldown
vet 3 - Passive healing, -10% received accuracy
vet 4 - 20% sight range, 15% accuracy

Aggregate : -20% received accuracy, 45% accuracy, passive healing, -20% weapon cooldown, 20% sight range

Rifles
vet 1 - Anti tank rifle grenade
vet 2 - -23% received accuracy, -20% weapon cooldown

Aggregate : Anti tank rifle grenade, -23% received accuracy, -20% weapon cooldown

In addition to volks having an obvious edge at this point in the battle pound for pound vs rifles, one needs to realize that long range efficacy significantly outperforms close range combat ability.

The close range dominance of rifles and concscripts become increasingly less valuable the longer a game lasts. Running into close range vs a squad of axis infantry in the early game is a useful, and efficient tactic, however, when both sides have multiple infantry, mgs, mines, vehicles that don't want to overextend or fire on the move ( and thus prefer to remain stationary to avoid AT guns / movement dps penalty), long range static fighting becomes the norm in the late game. In addition, cover is ruined by explosions so most running must occur on open field.

Whenever multiple units must run to maximise their dps in close range vs another plethora of units, the stationary ones will always win because they focus fire a running squad down that has incurred both acccuracy and cooldown penalties on the move and is experiencing little to no cover.

This means that in a late game scenario, long range, static fighting is what most fighting infantry v infantry endure. This is part of the reason why the airborne commander that captain price loves is effective, it offers two alternatives to bad close range allied infantry in the pathfinder and the LMG paratrooper who is basically a little bit worst than obersoldaten, but come earlier and are more flexible as a trade off.

One can see now that volks are more than capable of dealing with rifles in a realistic game scenario, the 45% accuracy buff vs the no accuracy buff is substantial. In terms of pure infantry to infantry combat, volks also become superior to rifles at vet 1 as they get recieved accuracy modifier vs an AT nade.

All of this comes with the fact that volks are cheaper to make and to reinforce and for early game the OKW has stronger units and better capping.

2. You said mgs counter volks, however, OKW gets faster mg than us forces through doctrinal call-in and also is very cheap on the manpower.

The difference between volks and rifles,however, is that rifles want to run in and flank to get higher close range dps compared to volks which exposes them vs mgs. Volks want to fight at range behind cover making them fundamentally less exposed to mgs all while the axis mg is easier to obtain and maintain.

3. USF has to deal with a lot of random manpower bleed from unwanted units, lieutenant, captain, and major are all situationally useless and cost 100s of manpower over a course of a battle. Note I am not claiming that these units are useless, just that they can be useless compared to volks which always have a use on the field.

4. I don't "dive" in to the OKW randomly praying he has no shrecks, the fact that he is guaranteed to have multiple shrecks makes my vehicles vulnerable to the basic OKW infantry for the entire game allowing for less harrassment room and overall less use. Compare this to the luchs which can commonly get 25+ kills even vs top 10 players because on large maps it can often roam freely and harass squads without losing literally 1/2 its health from max range.



I'm a 1v1 player

Jeebus! +20% vision, -20% received AND +45% accuracy buffs? Where the ______ did Relic think that's a good idea?!! Holy heck, I knew Volks were a pain to kill but didn't realize the incredible perks they got were that much. PLUS when you get into people stacking intel bulletins on top of that...

New OKW forces Soviet and USF to defend territory like Ost, until the armor rolls out.

But when Ost does this, it helps them win the game. When USF/Sov do this, the armor doesn't perform vs the absurd OKW vehicles and Crouching Tiger Puppchen/Shrek blob.

An US rifle blob will beat the hell out of an OKW Volks blob for cost, simply because of the possibility to get BARs and lack of blob control for OKW. If we nerfed Volks this would have to be coupled with a Rifle nerf.

The problem is not the Volks performance but the possibility to field 90 ammo Schrecks with full income. Afaik this was seen as OP on the initial Panzergrenadiers and thus they got two Schrecks for more ammo. The Schreck price should go up to 100 for Volks Schrecks and the cost bulletin (making them cost as much as around 75 ammo only) should be replaced by something else.

The whole point of this patch was to make the under-performing Volks viable again. No need to revert this.

I personally think the biggest issue with the OKW is that Relic didn't revert a lot of the mechanics that they had when they were resource starved. The OKW have a lot of cheap utility that becomes broken when they have full resources now, and the King Tiger without a cp cap or delay was a bit of a joke.

Jeebus! +20% vision, -20% received AND +45% accuracy buffs? Where the ______ did Relic think that's a good idea?!! Holy heck, I knew Volks were a pain to kill but didn't realize the incredible perks they got were that much. PLUS when you get into people stacking intel bulletins on top of that...

Wait till you see rifles with the super -45% received accuracy at vet 3.

Wait till you see rifles with the super -45% received accuracy at vet 3.

It's not very impressive seeing as volks +45% accuracy seems to nullify that completely.

It's not very impressive seeing as volks +45% accuracy seems to nullify that completely.

Sure makes a difference when riflemen have dual bars

Sure makes a difference when riflemen have dual bars

So is it the bars or the vet. Make up your mind!