T-34/76 feels plain pathetic

yes German Armour should be better and more expensive but the difference between the cost's of the t 34 and the P4 and the difference between there effectiveness do not match up, the t34 is only good as AI and useing ram(but only when you have another source of good AT, which you Dont get from t3) and the AI German tank I.E. the ostwind does it alot lot better than the t 34.

i think a big problem is the inability to tech both t3 and t4 for soviets, if i could get both an su 85 and a t 34 i would not mind how bad its AT was due to ram.

Should ram remain?? or should it be ditched for a much more effective tank, lower cost increased damage + penetration perhaps.

I personally don't like Ram from a pure design perspective, but even if it stays, it has a place in the game. It's true that, bang for buck, the PIV is far more efficient than the T34.

Change Ram to a stun effect for both tanks, remove the damaged guns and maybe even the damaged engines.
Then buff T-34 vs. tanks but slightly decrease its anti infantry damage/accuracy.

IDK exactly how bad it is, but something needs to be done - even if it's just a tiny change.

The T-34 is just too weak compared to the P4.

So use the T70. It melts infantry and can be out at like 8 minutes.

Pgrens can be out in about 3-4 minutes. T70 isn't going to last long against a faust or Shreks. Even a scout car cannon can clean it up from the rear.

The fact that the FLAKpanzer can go toe to toe with a T34 is also laughable. Ostwin is so ridiculously good against infantry/AT guns and also has FREE anti-air. It shouldn't be able to penetrate a T34, which was one of the best tanks of the war.

^

Ostwind first is a too big a fuel investment for something without soft AT capability.

Pgrens can be out in about 3-4 minutes. T70 isn't going to last long against a faust or Shreks. Even a scout car cannon can clean it up from the rear.

The fact that the FLAKpanzer can go toe to toe with a T34 is also laughable. Ostwin is so ridiculously good against infantry/AT guns and also has FREE anti-air. It shouldn't be able to penetrate a T34, which was one of the best tanks of the war.

The Ostwind has a 37mm auto-cannon. If it were firing armor piercing shells, it could most certainly penetrate the armor of the T-34/76. The Germans were relying on PZIII with 37mm and 50mm main guns up until late 1942 when the 75mm L/43 variants of the PZIV started seeing service.

Even though the T-34 greatly outnumbered them, they still managed to knock out 2,300 T-34's in 1941 and a further 6,600 in 1942.

It is certainly possible for the Ostwind's main gun to damage a T-34. The question is whether or not it carried any of the right type of ammunition to do so.

I think indeed the t34 is now to weak and does not display the treat it displayed at the time.

I think the mistake in designing this game model has been made by trying to scale it under the IS 2 and SU85

I think SEga would do well making the t34 a far more formidable main battle tank, this in return helps sega also makes is 2 and other soviet heavy armor less spamable

Even if the T70 is so light it should be able to damage tanks better especially from rear armor

I seriously think a lot need to be repatched

Soviet armor battle should evolve more around t34

The Ostwind has a 37mm auto-cannon. If it were firing armor piercing shells, it could most certainly penetrate the armor of the T-34/76. The Germans were relying on PZIII with 37mm and 50mm main guns up until late 1942 when the 75mm L/43 variants of the PZIV started seeing service.

Even though the T-34 greatly outnumbered them, they still managed to knock out 2,300 T-34's in 1941 and a further 6,600 in 1942.

It is certainly possible for the Ostwind's main gun to damage a T-34. The question is whether or not it carried any of the right type of ammunition to do so.

1. There's no OSTWIND in 1941&1942, your argument is invalid at the very beginning

2. 37 flak penetrates 31mm armor at 500M(IIRC or even less), T-34 has sloped 45mm ALL-AROUND

3. "Superior" German Force knocked out bunch of T-34 at 1941&1942 do not support your "It could most certainly penetrate the armor of the T-34/76" assumption, they are two different story.....

1. There's no OSTWIND in 1941&1942, your argument is invalid at the very beginning

2. 37 flak penetrates 31mm armor at 500M(IIRC or even less), T-34 has sloped 45mm ALL-AROUND

3. "Superior" German Force knocked out bunch of T-34 at 1941&1942 do not support your "It could most certainly penetrate the armor of the T-34/76" assumption, they are two different story.....

Personally I don't think the Ostwind or Wirbelwind should even be in the game. Fewer than 200 combined total even saw the field. We are talking about a couple of weapon systems that were cobbled together out of old knocked out PZIV chassis, some FLAK and sheet metal.

The KWK 37mm L/45 could penetrate 31mm of armor at a 30 degree slope from 500m using PzGr 40 ammunition. I'm assuming that's the gun you are referring to.

Lol why do so many balance threads devolve with discussions of historical accuracy? We're talking about a game where combat engineers build structures in 30 seconds, and fuel + munitions spring out of thin air by raising a flag on an arbitrary point of a map.

Say it with me now... balance >>> realism

Just look at balance changes from coh1 such as the calliope having a completely decorational and non-working main gun. Historically very inaccurate (and historically vehicles like the calliope and the pershing were in extremely limited supply).

None of that matters in a video game where fun and balance take precedence.

I have not played coh 2 enough to make useful balance remarks, although i would thunk based on the similar costs and time to build the t34 and pz4 should be reasonably close to each other (similar to pz4 and sherman from coh1). ie, random dice rolls will allow the engagement to go either way. But as it stands, i dont see any way the t34 stands up or wins against pz4 no matter how lucky the dice rolls get. And considering the lack of other AT options out of soviet T3, this seems like a huge issue.

Historically speaking, the Panther was germany's answer to the T-34. While the former was better armored and had a *slightly* better weapon, the T-34 had superior range and mobility. It's not as crass a difference as the game displays it.

The PzKw IV was ment as a support tank for the Stug III, mainly vs. Infantry and small Tanks like the T-70. The T-34 wtfpwned The Panzer IV so hard though, that the Germans developed the Panther. Later models of the PzIV (and those in the game) had a much better weapon. What is especially egregious, is that the T-34 can not reliably penetrate PzIV armor, while the PzIV can penetrate the T-34. That's so completely wrong, Stalin just turned over in his grave. Therefore, I think penetration of the T-34 should be upped considerably. That would also have the welcome side-effect of exciting T-34 vs. PzIV duels, instead of those lame stone-paper fights the current game pace provides.

The game has tank balance completely upside down. Balance is more important than realism is correct, but realism had balance as well, and - I am just leaning outside the window here - the leaders and engineers of the two biggest armies of the world did understand tank balance a tad better than relic does.

The Ostwind has a 37mm auto-cannon. If it were firing armor piercing shells, it could most certainly penetrate the armor of the T-34/76. The Germans were relying on PZIII with 37mm and 50mm main guns up until late 1942 when the 75mm L/43 variants of the PZIV started seeing service.

Even though the T-34 greatly outnumbered them, they still managed to knock out 2,300 T-34's in 1941 and a further 6,600 in 1942.

It is certainly possible for the Ostwind's main gun to damage a T-34. The question is whether or not it carried any of the right type of ammunition to do so.

And there was about 40~ Ostwinds even built.

In game, the Ostwin isn't using armor piercing rounds and have a completely open top gunner which could easily be disabled. But they do get a shock crew vet ability. Again, Oswtwind's effectiveness vs infantry is pretty much supreme and has free anti-air and great mobility, which will make it useful all the way to late game -- i've seen it take 3 shots from a su85 on its side and live. The fact that it can stand toe to toe with a T34 makes no sense. T34s armor needs a pretty substantial buff.

^

Ostwind first is a too big a fuel investment for something without soft AT capability.

Disagree, Ostwind is pretty damn versatile. It destroys Hit the dirt conscripts, Shock and Snipers. I've seen it utterly wipe out two guard squads after surviving two buttons. It can kill a T70/T34 and owns halftracks/M3s/su76s/katyushas. It's not going to stand up to a su85, but it's quick enough to stay out of its range and escape certain death.

^

That's my point - if it lost the soft AT capability it has at the moment I don't really think it'd be viable. Currently, I'm a fan, it's a risk against heavier armour if you don't micro it well, minces infantry and becomes *ridiculously* good with vet.

Ost just needs a big fuel reduction and lower its AT abilities. Then you have Stug (AT), Ost (AI), and P4 (middle, but more expensive) in T3 Osteer.

Hard to say what the T34 needs right now given the Sov faction as a whole. Fix a couple of other things and it probably merits making the T34 stronger AT.

EDIT: And these "historically accurate" arguments need to quit.

A.) Nobody gives a dayum.
B-Z.) It's a game, balance/fun trumps realism.

The sheet amount of lol if a game implemented true realism would be staggering.

Soviets as a whole kinda lack in the AT department, in all the tfn games i saw 90% of soviets went for the 85 as it is a beast of an AT gun but in the few games where the little t34 came out they were pretty much used for ramming... which is just... not very fun to watch.


I think makeing it the panzer's equal would help alot it is not like soviets have much choice in the hard AT department. field gun )a bit meh vs panthers and up) or su 85s and the isu 152 vs P4's stugs, panthers, shreks, pak, (again kinda meh) elephant, pak43 (situational) tiger.

^

That's my point - if it lost the soft AT capability it has at the moment I don't really think it'd be viable. Currently, I'm a fan, it's a risk against heavier armour if you don't micro it well, minces infantry and units becomes *ridiculously* good with vet.

Your point isn't a good argument though, since the Ostwin can kill any Soviet T3 unit and 2/3 of their T4 and obliterates Zis guns. You can definitely get an Ostwind out when the Soviets are infantry heavy and it can be completely game changing. Along with it being still being very useful once the heavy armor hits the field due to its mobility, infantry killing power and FREE AA.

If you don't think it's 'viable' then you have just haven't used it correctly, or seen it used well. It's ridiculously cost effective if you micro it carefully.

^

My point is that it IS viable as a first buy at the moment because it has that soft AT function and can counter T-70s and situationally a T-34. It would not (imo) be viable if it had no penetration on a T-34 like some folks are suggesting.

why would it not be viable? you can still destroy infantry light vehicles and aircraft, maybe it is not a great fist choice of tank.

But allowing it to overcome all of soviet T3 makes it a no brainer

Ostwind is more expensive than a T-34 (80mp, 20 fuel difference, IIRC?, which also means in an even fuel game there's going to be a window where the Russian player can have 2 T-34s to just the one Ostwind). It loses to one T-34 in an even fight (a vet 2 Ostwind can maul a T-34, though) most of the time (in a long distance frontal engagement the Ostwind will usually be able to retreat to somewhere it can get support).

Not really sure it trumps T-3 at the moment.

I don't think it would be a viable first choice if a T-34 which also has AI capability and is cheaper hard countered it and a T-70 had a fighting chance (and I like having all of the Ostheer T3 as a possible first choice). I've yet to see aircraft as a huge deal as Germans, tbh.

Yeah, maybe the T-34 needs some kind of buff (probably penetration or weapon damage) but I think buffing the armour to the point where an Ostwind doesn't penetrate is overkill, and making it a P-IV pretty much kills the asymmetrical balance which is the best thing about CoH really.