Pioneer vs sapper
9 Nov 2015, 09:54 AM
#21
7 
Posts: 1664
On a related note, does the Sturmpioneer sweeper grant a repair bonus only if it's equipped or will it get the bonus just from unlocking it but keeping it holstered?
9 Nov 2015, 10:34 AM
#22
Posts: 170
Pios have the same received accuracy as sappers and they have a flamer. Sappers are kinda overperforming for cost, but not much. Increasing it to 230 mp should be good.
9 Nov 2015, 11:00 AM
#23
Posts: 1930
Pios have the same received accuracy as sappers and they have a flamer.
Pio have no received accuracy bonus, the sapper have a 20% received accuracy bonus.
The sapper also have access to bren guns and PIAT, compared to the flamer on Pio. The flamer is undoubtedly important but a lmg is pretty awesome as well.
9 Nov 2015, 11:10 AM
#24
Posts: 232
Again, too much "in a vacuum" comparison without considering why sappers have the tools they do.
As infantry, they're the only non-doctrinal brit inf that can fire on the the move. Its one of few options for actually hurting poor positioning of weapons teams for example. Every other faction has non-doctrinal inf that can do decent dps at close range while moving (panzergrens, sturms, riflemen, conscripts).
On the repair rate, consider what sappers have to actually repair. Emplacements require significant repairs to keep them going, nerfing repairs speeds would be a further nail in the coffin.
Brits also only have two light vehicles that will ever need repairs - a universal carrier and (maybe, depending on choice) the AEC. Any tank they have to repair will still be out for a while.
So yes, sappers are better than pioneers - but they're much more important to the brit army than pioneers.
As infantry, they're the only non-doctrinal brit inf that can fire on the the move. Its one of few options for actually hurting poor positioning of weapons teams for example. Every other faction has non-doctrinal inf that can do decent dps at close range while moving (panzergrens, sturms, riflemen, conscripts).
On the repair rate, consider what sappers have to actually repair. Emplacements require significant repairs to keep them going, nerfing repairs speeds would be a further nail in the coffin.
Brits also only have two light vehicles that will ever need repairs - a universal carrier and (maybe, depending on choice) the AEC. Any tank they have to repair will still be out for a while.
So yes, sappers are better than pioneers - but they're much more important to the brit army than pioneers.
9 Nov 2015, 11:23 AM
#25
Posts: 1593 | Subs: 1
.
On the repair rate, consider what sappers have to actually repair. Emplacements require significant repairs to keep them going, nerfing repairs speeds would be a further nail in the coffin.
.
dont nerf repair speed of sappers, buff the repairspeed of the old factions.
(a further nail in the coffin? brits are everything except weak lol)
9 Nov 2015, 11:41 AM
#26
Posts: 232
Nail in the coffin refers to brit emplacements specifically.
9 Nov 2015, 13:30 PM
#27
Posts: 1593 | Subs: 1
Nail in the coffin refers to brit emplacements specifically.
i cant see whats wrong with them. if you compare them to other factions emplacements they are fine. and nobody wants sim city were you can go afk and make some coffee come back and you still got your mapcontrol. well placed emplacements are still strong and fullfill their role 100%
9 Nov 2015, 14:37 PM
#28
Posts: 1484
I would take the extra line of sight on Pioneers any day. The extra line of sight provides so many tactical opportunities not mention flame thrower upgrades.
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9 Nov 2015, 15:06 PM
#29
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
I would take the extra line of sight on Pioneers any day. The extra line of sight provides so many tactical opportunities not mention flame thrower upgrades.
Extra LOS on pios is actually HUGE.
Ever get ATG or HMG decrewed, ALWAYS recrew with pios for self spotting.
RETs can equip dual weapons so its only soviet CEs that are losers here since they have nothing going for them except for demos, but when it comes to actual COMBAT part of COMBAT engineers, they are worse then RETs.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
9 Nov 2015, 15:15 PM
#30
Posts: 232
i cant see whats wrong with them. if you compare them to other factions emplacements they are fine. and nobody wants sim city were you can go afk and make some coffee come back and you still got your mapcontrol. well placed emplacements are still strong and fullfill their role 100%
Oh but I do compare them to other factions emplacements - I compare them to the Flak HQ.
Brits emplacements are only as strong as your opponent lets them be. I'd go into more detail, but it's a topic for another thread. Either way sappers need to be able to repair them at a rate fast enough to make them viable.
9 Nov 2015, 17:27 PM
#31
Posts: 170
Pio have no received accuracy bonus, the sapper have a 20% received accuracy bonus.
The sapper also have access to bren guns and PIAT, compared to the flamer on Pio. The flamer is undoubtedly important but a lmg is pretty awesome as well.
Wow they actually have 0.8 rec accuracy.
That makes them crazy cost-efficient... Gonna build 2 sappers from now on in every game, they are ideal flanking troops.
10 Nov 2015, 00:54 AM
#32
Posts: 482
Again, too much "in a vacuum" comparison without considering why sappers have the tools they do.
As infantry, they're the only non-doctrinal brit inf that can fire on the the move. Its one of few options for actually hurting poor positioning of weapons teams for example. Every other faction has non-doctrinal inf that can do decent dps at close range while moving (panzergrens, sturms, riflemen, conscripts).
On the repair rate, consider what sappers have to actually repair. Emplacements require significant repairs to keep them going, nerfing repairs speeds would be a further nail in the coffin.
Brits also only have two light vehicles that will ever need repairs - a universal carrier and (maybe, depending on choice) the AEC. Any tank they have to repair will still be out for a while.
So yes, sappers are better than pioneers - but they're much more important to the brit army than pioneers.
But it's not the reason why the Royal is so cheap.The cost should be increased.
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10 Nov 2015, 01:05 AM
#33
Posts: 8
Significant cost difference. Argument invalid.
A Pioneer is better than a Combat engineer
10 Nov 2015, 01:31 AM
#34
Posts: 4928
Significant cost difference. Argument invalid.
all you filthy hotchkiss lovers need to l2p #TeamPanzerIII
> Kriegsbeute Doctrine|Partisan Rework|British Infantry Rework|Soviet Assault Squad <
10 Nov 2015, 01:56 AM
#35
Posts: 1930
10 manpower is a significant cost difference?
soviet combat engineer cost 170
Wehr pioneer cost 200
10 Nov 2015, 03:06 AM
#36
Posts: 503
Don't nerf them just give a slight MP cost to reinforcement increase. They scale very well even without anvil tactics and their 5 man squad upgrade is only available to one other repair/engineer unit the RE's who have to reach vet 2
10 Nov 2015, 05:55 AM
#37
Posts: 4928
soviet combat engineer cost 170
Wehr pioneer cost 200
Misread, thought he meant Royal Engineer.
all you filthy hotchkiss lovers need to l2p #TeamPanzerIII
> Kriegsbeute Doctrine|Partisan Rework|British Infantry Rework|Soviet Assault Squad <
10 Nov 2015, 06:38 AM
#38
Posts: 1930
Don't nerf them just give a slight MP cost to reinforcement increase. They scale very well even without anvil tactics and their 5 man squad upgrade is only available to one other repair/engineer unit the RE's who have to reach vet 2
Someone has to carry the PIAT, and I would rather have a cheap and durable sapper carry them.
As it is it's already a significant trade off losing 2 weapons in order to have a decent infantry ATW.
10 Nov 2015, 23:12 PM
#39
Posts: 503
Someone has to carry the PIAT, and I would rather have a cheap and durable sapper carry them.
As it is it's already a significant trade off losing 2 weapons in order to have a decent infantry ATW.
I will give them Piats if I have munitions to spare and went Royal Engineers (if I went commandos then I save for Air Supremacy
) but I would say anecdotal evidence of streams and casts of 1v1 and 2v2 I have watched and the ones I have played; people are equipping PIATs about 10-20% of the time at most. They just are not popular which I understand because to get full use you have to attack ground.
11 Nov 2015, 08:46 AM
#40
Posts: 172
Soviet Engineers and Ostheer Pioneers have worse repair speeds than all the new factions. It's a tad embarrassing to be honest. I don't know Royal Engineer's repair rate, but here are the others:
32 seconds for Combat Engineers, Pioneers, and Vehicle Crews.
20 seconds for Veterancy 2 of the Above.
26 seconds for Rear Echelon Troops.
14 seconds for Vet 2 RET's
17 seconds for Sturmpioneers
13 seconds for Sturmpioneers with Minesweeper OR Vet 3
10 seconds for Sturmpioneers with Minesweeper AND Vet 3
Times are based on how long it takes to restore 200 health.
Can you tell me when this was tested?
Becuase Sturmpio's repair speed was ninja nerfed to the level of pioneers.
(Last tested on September. Of course without minesweeper.)
Is it ninja buffed back? Or is this a cheat mod problem?
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