Su-85

nerf su76 pen, buff su85 pen, nerf its vet0 ROF slightly and vet2/3 ROF by a lot. Fixed

Just finished a massive 4v4 where the 2 of us soviers went docs with arty to counter bunker spam and the only thing that saved us against the mass of eventual tigers/2KT/ panthers was SU85s at longe range plus zis guns and lots of US priests and US manned AT guns. My point is that Unless the SU goes with a doctrine for 34/85 or IS-2/ISU-152 the SU-85 is literally the pinnacle of their AT armor capability. They aren't bless with two great AT stock armor pieces like Ostheer (Panther and Stug G) or OKW (JP4 and Panther).

My point is that Unless the SU goes with a doctrine for 34/85 or IS-2/ISU-152 the SU-85 is literally the pinnacle of their AT armor capability.

I go in Partysans, KV-1 or Guards&ISU and still no use SU-85 because:

1) SU-85 Vet 1 is useless. It's bad? It's OK? Just imagine Stug without TWP and jagdpanzer4 without stealth. Or M36/M10 without HVAP. Vet 1 will give soviet self-propelled guns NOTHING.
2) Weak survival. All Germans AT thrown in you Su-85 breaks through. No armor or HP vet bonus.
3) Focused Sight. 50% is great but penalty is great also. Spotting Scope or vet 2 jagdpanzer4 will give additional vision without drawback.
4) Useless against Elefant or Jadtiger. All soviet vehicles is useless against Elefant or Jadtiger. Why i must build most expensive soviet stock unit if he still ineffective against heavy TD?
5) Zero efficacy against infantry and AT gun.
6) Tech. You can not build SU-85 at the same time as PIV come.
Give SU-85 some sort of HVAP at 1 vet and we will be fine (like in Cruzz mod). Maybe.

SU-85 is fine. It's simply that the SU-76 outshines it.

+1

Actually you don't, it can spot for itself.

The problem is, it is shadowed by SU-76 which is over performing. SU-76 need Penetration nerf. Although, SU-85 might need a slight penetration buff. But again, SU-76 is too cheap, arrives too soon, and has great penetration.

I mean that you need to scout ahead for flanking tanks. But yeah the su76 is over performing for cost. either reduce penetration or increase the fuel cost.

I feel comparisons to Su76 only detract from discussing this unit. The 76 might be nerfed or it might not.

Su85 is very good and has awesome veterancy bonuses. It's just its godawful mobility that is the problem, and I am talking without the focused sight penalties.

Also when discussing this unit please discuss its vet1 ability, which is probably the most insulting one in the entire game (compare to the StuG and laugh).

Also keep in mind that this unit now sits at the top of the Soviet tech tree, and is fielded much later than it used to be when every single balancing decision pertaining to it was made.

Remove the focus sight speed penalty when SU-85 hits Vet 2. So it's comparable to the JP4 which is far easier to get.

I go in Partysans, KV-1 or Guards&ISU and still no use SU-85 because:

1) SU-85 Vet 1 is useless. It's bad? It's OK? Just imagine Stug without TWP and jagdpanzer4 without stealth. Or M36/M10 without HVAP. Vet 1 will give soviet self-propelled guns NOTHING.
2) Weak survival. All Germans AT thrown in you Su-85 breaks through. No armor or HP vet bonus.
3) Focused Sight. 50% is great but penalty is great also. Spotting Scope or vet 2 jagdpanzer4 will give additional vision without drawback.
4) Useless against Elefant or Jadtiger. All soviet vehicles is useless against Elefant or Jadtiger. Why i must build most expensive soviet stock unit if he still ineffective against heavy TD?
5) Zero efficacy against infantry and AT gun.
6) Tech. You can not build SU-85 at the same time as PIV come.
Give SU-85 some sort of HVAP at 1 vet and we will be fine (like in Cruzz mod). Maybe.

All great points. It should get a vet two or three survival buff. Didn't know it didn't. And the vet one abilities being crap for soviets is so common among their units that I sometimes forget they have them lol. The biggest travesty is that IS-2 ability is to shut down main gun and be able to secure territory. Because what I want my best tank to do is stop fighting and go capture territory instead /S that ability should only be for T-70 since they can dart into enemy territory and get out before anyone can react.

I dont get why people keep complaining that the SU85 needs a buff. Its an excellent TD that does its job properly. Against a tiger, you can keep kiting it all day and a P4 is hopelessly losing vs it. The only thing it has problems with are panthers, especially on more open maps where its easier to get behind it. But thats a problem all assault guns and non turreted TDs share. Its easily fixed aswell - just mine the side approaches and 30 munitions will suddenly turn the engagement in the SU85s favour. You spent 30 munitions for a 50 fuel cheaper TD to take out a panther, thats a fair trade off.

Yes, the SU85 can be a bit cumbersome when turning. Yes, non turreted vehicles tend to have shit pathing(the stug shares this with the SU85 to some extent) but youre not supposed to have it sitting on the frontlines, where itll constantly have to do a 180. Just like wehr have to scout for their MG42, Stugs and all that, SU have to scout for their TD - but wait, the SU85 is actually the only tank left with focus sight. Hm, wonder why. Probably because its intended to be maneuvered around a p4 point blank, preferably with your gun facing your own base when youre being assaulted...

Add to that the excellent vet bonuses of the SU85 and you have one of the best tank killing machines in the game. Even a panther will suffer greatly from a vet2/3 SU85 if it cant find a proper flanking approach or hits a mine on said approach.

Now what if we buffed the SU85 - we would have a fast moving, fast turning, hard hitting and fast reloading TD with virtually no drawbacks except that it cant kill infantry. I dont think this is really what is needed here.

Now dont get me wrong. I am not opposed to changing the SU85 up a bit to make it more appealing. I am however opposed to outright buffing it.

I believe the biggest problem here, as has already been mentioned, is that the SU76 is so incredibly good that people dont see an incentive to tech up and build an SU85. You may get one as an opportunity purchase if you already got T4 up. But currently with the previous nerfs to the katyusha(its still a very good unit imo), with how bad the t34/76 scales into late game and with how much the SU76 really does the same as the 85 but for cheap, theres no real incentives for soviets to tech up unless the enemy is camping like crazy and you really really need that katyusha.


I believe what is needed is an actual change to the SU76. Bring it in line with its cost and tier to give people an incentive to go and build an 85. Right now the 76 has roughly the same reload, does the same damage, has roughly the same pen, has excellent vet bonuses and got a free barrage ability. So for essentially a bit less armour than the 85 and 1 hit less hp, you get an 85 with AI capabilities. No wonder, nobody wants the 85.

So yeah, right now SU got 2 different units that do exactly the same for different pricing. Of course people will build the cheaper one, then look at the more expensive one and, judging from the cheaper ones performance, conclude that the more expensive one is bad.

What I believe has to be done is give the 76 a more defined role in support, as opposed to pure TD with light AI capabilities.

Here are a few changes that I believe could work.

Add 10 muni to the barrage ability, but make it do more damage vs structures such as bunkers and garrisoned houses(the ability being free as is was a bad design choice from the start if you ask me). Lower pen to about 180. That way it can reliably counter a P4 unless flanked but it will have trouble dealing with panthers and tigers, effectively forcing you to tech up and replace it. Adjust its vet bonuses to further enhance the barrage ability and remove and current pen bonuses in exchange. Give the main gun(without barrage) round about the same aoe of the 76 gun the t34 is using. That way it will be an assault gun that can reliably deal with structures and that can take out a P4 and defend itself moderately well against infantry. A non turreted t34 with slightly higher pen, less hp and a barrage ability if you will.

Because it doesnt have a turret it will inherently still be vulnerable to flanks and because of its low hp, a dedicated AT effort with a couple shrecks and a pak can still take it out but it will be an all around unit that is good for supporting assaults.

For the SU85, I feel the unit should stay the way it is. Maybe MAYBE give it the removed penalty for focus sight at vet2 that UGBEAR suggested, but thats about it.

Remove the focus sight speed penalty when SU-85 hits Vet 2. So it's comparable to the JP4 which is far easier to get.

That was removed for a reason. Su-85s backing up at maximum speed and hitting the tanks chasing them out of their range was ridiculous.

Bringing the SU85's (and the Elefant's) accuracy up to the standard of other tank destroyers would probably suffice. afaik both of them still have 0.025 acc at max range and 0.05 up close. Coupled with the 0.5 moving modifier, the SU85 has worse accuracy than many USF and UKF medium tanks, let alone specialized TDs (eg. Firefly with an accuracy of 0.05(!) at max range and 0.08 up close, virtually guaranteeing a near 100% hit rate)

Does the elefant has les accuration than other TD?
If so it would be really weird for a expensive at weapon.

That was removed for a reason. Su-85s backing up at maximum speed and hitting the tanks chasing them out of their range was ridiculous.

you are talking about the current JP4 aren't you

All great points.

Thx. In fact, I forgot one more point

SU-85 have zero doctrine improvements - no smoke, no spotting scope, no HEAT shells. Just stupid repair which does not help in the fight.

And the vet one abilities being crap for soviets is so common among their units that I sometimes forget they have them lol.

To be honest, 1 vet Wehrmacht infantry (except sniper and team weapons) is crap too.
I mean - who need a one-time Medical Pack for 30 ammo when you can have bunker for 60 ammo who will heal until not destroyed?? Especially pity it stacks up against the British Medical Pack IS.
Anyway, 1 vet Wehrmacht tanks and TD is useful, unlike the Soviet counterparts.

I dont get why people keep complaining that the SU85 needs a buff. Its an excellent TD that does its job properly.

jagdpancer4 better. Jakson better. What more? Elefant, Jagdtiger and Stug is in another weight category. In my opinion M10 better too.

a P4 is hopelessly losing vs it...

They have same price. SU-85 is TD and PzIV is Jack of all trades. And SU-85 from T4 and PzIV is T3 vehicles. Anyway, PzIV may always run using smoke&blitz.

Now what if we buffed the SU85...

We have jagdpancer4 as an example. In zero vet this thing no better SU-85. But vet come and jagd4 is way ahead.

The problem with the SU-85 is despite there being so much effective and readily available complete hard counters, (Shreks and AT Guns) it also doesn't counter tanks very well and dies far too easily to Panthers and Tigers, especially now with the +5 range buff. Given that Panthers and Tigers can't be countered with non existent infantry based for Soviets, and Ziss guns are not very effective against the anti infantry potential of not only the Tiger, but also the Pintle MG of the Panther, the SU-85 should be much more effective as a Tank Destroyer. (And the Jackson too for that matter) It's also Tier4 so it's a huge investment.

I would certainly love to see SU-76 nerfed in exchange for SU-85 buffed. I would like to see it's frontal armour increased and/or penetration. Given it's lack of turret it dies way too easily, and there's not even much point in flanking it. I think Giving it a frontal armour buff rather than penetration would be interesting to differentiate it from Jackson and Firefly which are both very high damage but glass canon.

Overall I think Coh2 would benefit so much if the late game AT of Allies was buffed in exchange for Anti Infantry vehicles nerfed.

The saddest thing is that the 90 fuel StuG III beats the 120 fuel SU-85 1v1 in a vacuum.

The saddest thing is that the 90 fuel StuG III beats the 120 fuel SU-85 1v1 in a vacuum.

But you can't look at things in a vacuum. The SU85 is now locked away in the final tier though and it's nemesis the tiger has gotten a range buff so I would support the same on SU. It will still be inferior to JP4 so OKW SU balance wouldn't be a problem.

But you can't look at things in a vacuum. The SU85 is now locked away in the final tier though and it's nemesis the tiger has gotten a range buff so I would support the same on SU. It will still be inferior to JP4 so OKW SU balance wouldn't be a problem.

i really don't want a 65/70 range TD just because the VI got a buff it didn't need. i really want the heavies to all stay at 40 range.

With the current meta in a 4vs4 match, the gamble to tech to soviet t4 don't worth the candle unless you absolutely need a Katyusha. The Su-85 is far to slow to be useful and is a easy prey for stealth rak or some double shrekers. Getting t4 mean you won have much def vs double ostwind/pz4 or shrekers blob so you will endure being pushed back.

With the much improved 7.5cm le.IG 18 Infantry Support Gun, HMG and Zis won't stay alive close to the frontline to stop a shreckers push. You absolutely need both the flak halftrack and the Su76. Else you gonna have to back up an lose terrain.

Once you start building su-76, you will lose some and will need to replace them asap, so no resources or time for t4...unless the enemy is sleeping...

Proposition :
Soviet could build T3 or t4 in any order, but you would still need both to unlock special T4 units like t-34/85 or the Katyusha.

That would improve soviet fun factor and gameplay while maintaining the balance. As a trade in for flexibility i would also increase t3 and t4 fuel cost by 5%.

Comments ?

I'd like to say that relic can remove self-sight ability and give SU-85 some ability that improves rate of fire temporarily. Maybe then it can have some utility versus STUGs at least. I have more fun with shitty T34/76 than with SU-85 which is slow and ... slow. Or it does need some acceleration buff