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Grenadiers - Not for the faint of micro

25 Sep 2015, 09:43 AM
#61
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

To me grens effectiveness and need for micro is directly related to the build order.

Basically, grenspam is weak, slap a sniper or a pair of HMG42 and you don't need to stretch as much.

Obviously playing like you would play sov or USF(single independent squads all over the map) won't get you far as you can't be as aggressive as these two.
25 Sep 2015, 09:53 AM
#62
avatar of JohnnyB

Posts: 2396 | Subs: 1

For once, I can agree with you. Gren spam is not effective if not blobbed. One mg42 or a sniper can add value to your early game force.
25 Sep 2015, 10:33 AM
#63
avatar of Lemontree

Posts: 67

I don't think its so much a problem with grens being weak but more the difference in how you use your early game units.

Cons for example despite being weak, its very effective just spamming them, spreading them out everywhere and oorah flanking and such. With USF either that or blobbing can be very effective. Also in general because you want them up close, its very easy to set up situations where you just overwhelm grens.

Whereas I feel with grens to be effective, you need to use combined arms and constantly try and keep them at max range. So its not so much the micro that is harder, more having to use a multitude of things to make them effective.
25 Sep 2015, 11:25 AM
#64
avatar of Qbix

Posts: 254

I hate squad wipes as much as everyone, but the reasoning given by Relic was the following:

If squads are out in the open, they don't bunch up. As soon as you try to put them in cover, especially if the available "spots" (preview while mouseover) are only a few, no matter if yellow or green, the models get closer to each other.

In other words, cover helps against projectiles, but makes you more vulnerable against explosives and big guns. Staying out of cover does the opposite. That's intended and reliably balanced.
25 Sep 2015, 11:36 AM
#65
avatar of KurtWilde
Donator 11

Posts: 440

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2015, 16:53 PMNapalm
The key word is LMG Gren. You are forcing a choice on a player. Does anybody remember the G43 upgrade? I thought not. In my opinion the LMG is a crutch that is more then likely being looked at elsewhere in balance land.


no one has been using the g43 since 1979 man
25 Sep 2015, 11:38 AM
#66
avatar of KurtWilde
Donator 11

Posts: 440



This results in basic Axis infantry falling apart later into the game because the superior scaling


and i thought we were going to be friends. I have been playing OH almost exclusively since the brits came along and grens are fine. Give them a LMG and a move
25 Sep 2015, 11:58 AM
#67
avatar of TheMachine
Senior Caster Badge

Posts: 875 | Subs: 6

Grens are too hard to micro... what? Every single unit with LMG's are completely effortless to micro. Grenadier LMG's, Obers, Airbourne M1919's, you literally just have to attack move. Grenadiers don't even need to flank Machine guns half the time because you just rifle nade a Maxim/50 cal crew and gun the rest down with the LMG.

USF not only have to pay 25 fuel and 150munitions for their Grenades, they are also really easy to dodge. The Animation is really obvious, where as Rifle nades have no fuse and an animation that is hard to spot if behind a tall piece of cover like a hay stack, and the animation bugs out so much anyway.

Even if Grenadiers are as weak as you make out. Isn't that working as intended? Why should a faction that has the best Support Weapons and Tanks also have the best infantry. Shouldn't USF, with paper thin tanks have the best infantry?
25 Sep 2015, 12:23 PM
#68
avatar of Werw0lf

Posts: 121

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2015, 16:44 PMNapalm
My frustration as of late has been the USF toss a grenade and retreat tactic. The timer on those nads are short which in my case leads to squad wiping, both in cover and out.


jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2015, 17:12 PMRocket
Wow did he just complain about the usf grenade lmao it is like the most easily dodged grenade in the game slow obvious wind up and huge timer.

Yes he did and so do I. It's the most ridiculously imbalanced, overeffective and thus abused grenade in the game.

Play some 1v1 auto ranked vs USF and you might understand why. Then again, probably not. :unsure:

As for the condescending remarks about being "most easily dodged" and "L2p". What utter nonsense and arrogance.

USF nades I have thrown at me have a zero seconds fuse and next to no flight time, so we unless we are playing an entirely different game?

Assuming you see the animation if your attention is where his is at that very moment given how scan and micro intensive this game is 1v1 often with several simultaneous firefights occurring while manually attending multitude of other tasks so much harder to attend in COH2 than they were in COH1.

Now please pay attention to the important part Homer. Animation - response time from battle server - effect.

e.g. My Wehr or Ost troops are in green or yellow cover, or a building, or if a HMG, deployed firing. By the time I click to select them then click leave building, retreat, or move to point, before my PC play squad responds and enactions the command on the battle server, they are already dead. That indicates a problem with USF nades nothing to do with whether one is blessed with micro Überness.

The consequence is instant entire squad loss 99% of the time. Have that happen once, it's major disadvantage. Twice in this game in any 1v1 and you may as well toss the game as game over.

But as if that wasn't bad enough of itself, USF throw them around like rocks on the ground in a rock garden in every engagement.

The proof of their effiacy is in their overuse abuse and our complaint. If they were no good, you wouldn't have one thrown almost without exception regardless the circumstance every time a USF squad engages, nor us complaining about it.

Whether for the absurd amount of damage they do compounded by their relative undodgability, USF nades need removing or to cost 350MP EACH per throw, not something as insignificant as just a nerf.
25 Sep 2015, 12:39 PM
#69
avatar of BeefSurge

Posts: 1891

Riflemen grenades should cost 350 MP to throw?

Besides not making any sense (unless the grenades are in fact tiny people, which is downright horrifying to think about) riflemen grenades require expensive research and are easy to dodge.
25 Sep 2015, 12:48 PM
#70
avatar of broodwarjc

Posts: 824

Riflemen grenades are expensive to research, but they are some of the best "regular" grenades in the game for their cost. They do have a very short fuse and a very long range.
25 Sep 2015, 12:48 PM
#71
avatar of GiaA

Posts: 713 | Subs: 2

What the hell. Rifle grenades are way better than US nades.
25 Sep 2015, 16:11 PM
#72
avatar of Rocket

Posts: 728

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Sep 2015, 12:23 PMWerw0lf



Yes he did and so do I. It's the most ridiculously imbalanced, overeffective and thus abused grenade in the game.



Play some 1v1 auto ranked vs USF and you might understand why. Then again, probably not. :unsure:

As for the condescending remarks about being "most easily dodged" and "L2p". What utter nonsense and arrogance.

USF nades I have thrown at me have a zero seconds fuse and next to no flight time, so we unless we are playing an entirely different game?

Are we because all usf nades have a timer period. Only axis get grenades with 0 timers and rifle nades that do not have a timer. L2P

Assuming you see the animation if your attention is where his is at that very moment given how scan and micro intensive this game is 1v1 often with several simultaneous firefights occurring while manually attending multitude of other tasks so much harder to attend in COH2 than they were in COH1.

and 1v1 is more micro than 2v2? really? in 2v2 at times I might be fighting 2 players at once and that is easier than fighting just 1 player?

Do not tell me about micro, USF is by far the most micro intensive faction in the game as they have the weakest tanks period there is no argument to that and we normally are operating 3 times as many tanks at once you on the other hand are operating just 1 god tank, or a panther, jagpanzer all of which can even have self deploying smoke or camo that further ease your micro as well as survivability that make them more forgiving than any allied tank leaving you more room for mistakes and allies less.

Now like 10 people have already told you that for riflemen grenades
1.The throwing animation is the most obvious in the game and probably the longest
EDIT: soviet molotovs are the most obvious riflemen grenades a close 2nd
2.It has a timer and is easily dodges period.
3.It bugs a lot for instance sometimes the game somehow decides say the furthest riflemen model in the squad from say me throwing a nade at mg is going to be the one to throw the nade and for some reason it never goes off, also all the time i have ordered them to throw a nade the icon goes dark but they for some reason just dont throw it possibly making the difference of a sucessful push

Axis rifle nades have a hard to see animation that is often easily hidden and part of grens normal thing is some squads crouch when just firing. It has a 0 fuse if I am looking away and I hear grenade by the time i click back to my squad there is 0 time to react. They also can wipe injured squads bunched in cover just as easily as the usf nade.



Now please pay attention to the important part Homer. Animation - response time from battle server - effect.

e.g. My Wehr or Ost troops are in green or yellow cover, or a building, or if a HMG, deployed firing. By the time I click to select them then click leave building, retreat, or move to point, before my PC play squad responds and enactions the command on the battle server, they are already dead. That indicates a problem with USF nades nothing to do with whether one is blessed with micro Überness.

The consequence is instant entire squad loss 99% of the time. Have that happen once, it's major disadvantage. Twice in this game in any 1v1 and you may as well toss the game as game over.

But as if that wasn't bad enough of itself, USF throw them around like rocks on the ground in a rock garden in every engagement.

The proof of their effiacy is in their overuse abuse and our complaint. If they were no good, you wouldn't have one thrown almost without exception regardless the circumstance every time a USF squad engages, nor us complaining about it.

Whether for the absurd amount of damage they do compounded by their relative undodgability, USF nades need removing or to cost 350MP EACH per throw, not something as insignificant as just a nerf.

riflemen grenades should cost 350 MP bahahahah I might have to add that one to my signature or the fact you said they should be removed hahahaha how would we ever kill a mg or do anything really
25 Sep 2015, 16:17 PM
#74
avatar of NEVEC

Posts: 708 | Subs: 1

Remove lmg42, make them 5 man, nerf dps far, reduce panzerfaust range to at nade range, that what you want?
25 Sep 2015, 16:18 PM
#75
avatar of Napalm

Posts: 1595 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post25 Sep 2015, 11:25 AMQbix
I hate squad wipes as much as everyone, but the reasoning given by Relic was the following:

If squads are out in the open, they don't bunch up. As soon as you try to put them in cover, especially if the available "spots" (preview while mouseover) are only a few, no matter if yellow or green, the models get closer to each other.


I agree with this logic, but any four man squad is going to have a greater likelihood of being squad wiped.
25 Sep 2015, 16:23 PM
#76
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

Basically a this point I'm not really sure whats going on. Not only have automatch win rates hit rock bottom but OCF ones as well. I provided plenty of data to prove that Gren's at Vet 3 aren't A-move, quite the opposite really and yet here we still are with people insisting everything is fine.

I'm actually interested to see how bad it actually has to get before people start caring.

Since the hotfix hit the win rate for Ostheer and OKW in 2v2 has gotten even lower.
25 Sep 2015, 16:30 PM
#77
avatar of BeefSurge

Posts: 1891

I think that it would be cool if Ost didn't have to research battle phases and instead got to research things at their HQ.

Bolster infantry to 5 men, and other passive macro type upgrades.

It would be really interesting if the Ostheer could customize their strategy just like the Brits can, as opposed LMG Gren/sniper/pak wall everygame.
25 Sep 2015, 16:41 PM
#78
avatar of Napalm

Posts: 1595 | Subs: 2

Grens are too hard to micro... what? Every single unit with LMG's are completely effortless to micro.

Even if Grenadiers are as weak as you make out. Isn't that working as intended? Why should a faction that has the best Support Weapons and Tanks also have the best infantry. Shouldn't USF, with paper thin tanks have the best infantry?


Again, forcing LMG on Gren's. Isn't that known as a crutch? But that isn't what this thread is about.

Grens lack survivability when compared to the other front line infantry. This is what I'm trying to focus on. The game has changed drastically since late 2013 and I'm not entirely confident that 4 model front line infantry suit the game now. I know I've focused on the USF vs Ost side of things, but vs the UKF the same applies. 5 model infantry (when upgraded), all have the option for LMG's, and have the survivability to push.
25 Sep 2015, 17:02 PM
#79
avatar of Junaid

Posts: 509

jump backJump back to quoted post24 Sep 2015, 16:44 PMNapalm
Hello internet strangers,

It's been a very long time since I've created a balance thread as I have been attempting to "get good" in 1 v 1's as Ostheer. My observation is that Grenadiers are overly micro intensive when compared to other front line infantry. In the past six months cover has changed, grenades have changed, the other factions front line infantry have changed but Gren's have remained a near constant. Oh, there was that minor correction two patches ago which hurt their performance.

Simply put, given the direction the game has taken I feel the time is now for Gren's to have a 5th model. The damage should remain the same but this one change would at least make the unit more survivable and easier for the not-top-10 players to use.

My frustration as of late has been the USF toss a grenade and retreat tactic. The timer on those nads are short which in my case leads to squad wiping, both in cover and out. An extra model may help ease this.

Rawr


Agreed they could use a 5th man, but with dps realigned to be as is now. Preferably by reducing K98 dmg instead of RoF.

IMO they ought to standardize all squad sizes to 5 axis/6 allies with dps adjustments
25 Sep 2015, 17:06 PM
#80
avatar of Burts

Posts: 1702

Basically a this point I'm not really sure whats going on. Not only have automatch win rates hit rock bottom but OCF ones as well. I provided plenty of data to prove that Gren's at Vet 3 aren't A-move, quite the opposite really and yet here we still are with people insisting everything is fine.

I'm actually interested to see how bad it actually has to get before people start caring.

Since the hotfix hit the win rate for Ostheer and OKW in 2v2 has gotten even lower.




What is this nonsense? What rock bottom axis winrates?


A ~40% winrate for axis in tourneys is a fairly good figure. It's just 10% off from the "percect balance" of a 50/50 winrate.


We had tourneys were the axis winrate was lower.

Also, remember the time when everyone was saying USF was UP, and you just said "wait for the winrates to stabilize" because winratios get messed up when patch hits, well, now I'm going to say the exact same thing to you...


And yes, honestly the rifle/con buff was indeed a bit too much. IMO vannila cons were fine, all that needed buffs is was the molotov. Instead of giving cons veterancy a major buff, i think con PPSH should of gotten a more significant buff than it got now..


Rifles of course did need a buff, but i still think 20% is a bit overboard.


Instead of buffing cons, i think penals should of gotten buffed. :sibHyena:


Oh and instead of nerfing ostheer support weapons to "encourage combined arms" what really should of gotten nerfed was the goddam LMG grens.



I really dont like the LMG gren meta anyways. If anything grenadiers LMG should of gotten nerf, along with a hefty panzergrenadier + stormtrooper buff. And that's perhaps were this patch went wrong, instead of buffing conscripts/riflemen maybe they should of left them as they are and just nerfed the DPS on the LMG-42.


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