Grenadiers - Not for the faint of micro

Ay of these ideas could be implemented and would help OST early game alot:

• Free sandbags
  
• Additional model
  
• Kar98 buffs
  
  

At least one of them is desperately needed, personally i prefer free sandbags.

4 men is good for their role, long range anti infantry, AT snare, and mobile calling.

Grens are the most MP efficient basic troop besides REs. (REs are insane.)

The cost of this mp efficiency is a harsher drop in dps from casualties, as well a higher chance of being wiped. This leads to more retreats and less map presence as well. (Or, it encourages players to build a halftrack/bunker.)

All in all 4 man Grens are perfect for balance.

napalm have you gone mad!!!

Don't think grens need any direct buff, yet beign able to build sandbags would be great.

stuff

I think only possible options for grens to have 5 man is t4 tech similar to british to increase squad sizes. Comes late enough, helps ostheer in late game.

I'm not sure about the whole 5 man thing for grens, but this idea seems more logical to me.

They're fine. Allied infantry may not be right now, but Grenadiers are fine.

You realize how ridiculous it is to play 120 1v1s as one faction and announce that you've come to the convenient conclusion that "my infantry require more skill" right?

No balance claims here, just pointing this out.

I'm gonna side this time with Comm_ash as you are basically repeating the same he says on his post. Don't go all defensive right from the bat.

BTW, how are you getting those numbers? Are you running a program with simulates engagements ?

The way he stated was incorrect and comm has a history of insulting me for no reason. To answer your question I load up cheat mod and a test map and run the tests. I did 30 tests for each match up.

I like them how they are, but if a 5th man is necessary, why not make it like Rear Echelons and have them gain a 5th at Vet 2 or 3? Lower the increased accuracy bonus a bit to compensate for the sudden increase in DPS from the extra man.

Traditionally, Grens were the weakest and most cost-ineffective starting infantry (excluding Volks)and had to rely on their support weapons to be competitive vs Rifles and Consricpts. This was compensated for by the fact that they outscaled their opponents, making them highly cost effective when vetted and equipped with LMGs. This also used to a point offset the fact that Ostheer has no elite infantry.
Playing alot of Ostheer before the hotfix and trolling around with infantry centric builds, this tried dynamic quite simply no longer held true. Both the buffed Rifles (especially with flamers, but BARs also did the job) and Conscripts now dominated Grens all the way into the lategame, and this, along with the obviously broken shit, contributed to pushing the Ostheer win rate among the top 200 below 45% and render them the faction to avoid in the tourney, even though Rifle Comp/Partisans were not even allowed... To put it bluntly, it was a balancing failure that has to be described as nothing short of colossal. And since I am a smartass, I'll add that I predicted just that. Of course the usual suspects would not have it and advised me to learn to play. Yes I am salty.

The way he stated was incorrect and comm has a history of insulting me for no reason. To answer your question I load up cheat mod and a test map and run the tests. I did 30 tests for each match up.

I guess the 30 is average cause i was surprised by such a number as 68.4% ?
Roughly i'll say it's either 66.6% or 70% (20-21/30)

Further note:
-Was Hoorah used?
-Cover?
-Did units had vision on each other? Max range =/= Vision range


Offtopic: i'm surprised how now there "seems to be balanced on lolmodes" and how it's dispair on 1v1 and 2v2.

I like the idea of making grens a 5 man squad as it would help early survivability vs pretty much every kind of explosive and would represent a german army that hadn't yet been depleted of manpower on the eastern front. There are, however, a couple of concerns that would need to be addressed:

Grenedier DPS: Individual gren dps would have to be reduced so a 5 man squad does the same or less damage as a 4 man squad to ensure that grens don't become too powerful early game due to the added model.

Grenedier MP Cost: If the dps of a 5 man gren squad isn't reduced below what a 4 man squad currently does then the price of a gren squad (and subsequently reinforcement) would have to be increased to account for the extra surviability. How much of an increase I can't say but 260 would be a good starting point.

LMG DPS: One of the reasons grens are so strong late game is the amount of DPS their LMG outputs. Likewise one of the reasons they remain relatively balanced late game as well is because of how fragile a 4 man squad can be later on. If gren survivability increases then the DPS of their LMG upgrade would have to decrease to account for the extra late game survivability of the squad.

You guys seems to lose point that wehr is designed to use combined arms, not lol 6 lmg grens builds. While wehr may need buffs, those buffs are certainly not gren buffs.

Speaking of ease of use, grens are absolutely easiest-to use infantry in the game. They dont need to close on enemy to deal damage, thy dont need to take any risks, they require to stay on safe distance and riflenade everything.

And, excuse me, dodging nades is pure l2p. I am chuckle when i play games where people try to toss grenades on me after first 3 or 4 dodges. On the other hand, dodging rifle grenades, as already been said, much harder.

LMGS can use close-range dps buff, and g43 need buff overall, but nothing too crazy.

I think only possible options for grens to have 5 man is t4 tech similar to british to increase squad sizes. Comes late enough, helps ostheer in late game.

I tend to agree with this. Their strength comes from their versatility and how well they play with all the other units in the Wehr arsenal.

I would say that if anything, G43s need looking at. Especially the G43 upgrade for pgrens, but that's a seperate topic.

If you buff Grenadiers, I want Conscripts to be able to upgrade to DP-28s at Tier 4.

If you buff Grenadiers, I want Conscripts to be able to upgrade to DP-28s at Tier 4.

I want them to get 3x PPSh at T4 and replace in doctrine with 2x SVT (similar to G43).

I guess the 30 is average cause i was surprised by such a number as 68.4% ?

30 was the average yes. When a certain specific trend developed (such as almost 0 change in results over time) I moved on because yknow manually testing this shit takes a long time. I also rounded up in several cases because I assume you don't need to know it was 68.3673892%. There was also the issue of RNG jesus, because of the slow firing speed of Kar98k's and Mosins if one squad got unlucky and missed a lot they would lose for no good reason (which is a problem in and of itself imo).

I mean I wouldn't base my graduate research on the robustness of this study but It's just a smart/fun way to actually feeling how much received accuracy can impact unit performance.

Further note:
-Was Hoorah used?
-Cover?
-Did units had vision on each other? Max range =/= Vision range

No using cover because this about testing received accuracy. Used Oorah! to close distance each time as any good player would use it when closing to CQC. And units always had max vision because I wanted to test to see if absolute max range would give Volks/Grens enough time to kill enough models to win.

Based on the trend developed it's easy to tell that assuming no max sight range it would swing the odds in favor of Cons and Riflemen even more.

LMG DPS: One of the reasons grens are so strong late game is the amount of DPS their LMG outputs. Likewise one of the reasons they remain relatively balanced late game as well is because of how fragile a 4 man squad can be later on. If gren survivability increases then the DPS of their LMG upgrade would have to decrease to account for the extra late game survivability of the squad.

But what about 1919 Rifles? The 1919 is essentially an LMG42 in all respects and Riflemen have 5 men AND better received accuracy.

Dont get it a guy post something about one of the best infantry units in the game is hard to micro. Everyone knows there one of the strongest infantry units with out a doubt with the lmg. Everyone knows the joke just A move cause its that easy. OP also mentioned riflemen grenades hahahah what a joke there the worst nade in the game counting throw time, most obvious animation, buggy, and has a timer. Agaisnt a good opponet they only work if you try to guess them getting stuck in a pathing retreat or something. Rifle nades been broken since creation you cant watch more than one squad at once enough to be able to move away from a rifle grenade, but it is easy to do with riflemen grenades. Give riflemen a rifle nade exactly the same see how you like it.

OP obviously a l2p issue. Somehow though now everyone wants to change a already perfectly working unit when there is like 50 other things that roar predjudice over this no wonder relicf cant balance.

Also i would like to ask alexander since he is found on stats why is it seems to me that 1 model retreating gren, well axis units in general 90 percent of the time gets away even when i am chasing it with bars plus there recent buff it still escapes? If its [a 1 model allied unit edit*] grens, axis infantry dont even have to chase and 70 percent of the time it is a wiped squad. Ok well the 3 vet riflmen now actually gets away like 30 percent of the time now. Already nerfed for being close to gren pgren levels.

The key word is LMG Gren. You are forcing a choice on a player. Does anybody remember the G43 upgrade? I thought not. In my opinion the LMG is a crutch that is more then likely being looked at elsewhere in balance land.

Though I disagree grenadiers getting an extra model, I agree with you about the G43. I don't thing the change that took place like one year ago about this weapon was to appropriate. I remember loking at patch notes and ..."wtf !?". Grenadiers do not need a weapon for flanking moves. Firstly, they are not flanking units: they don't have smoke, they don't have rush. AGs on the other hand, are a flanking unit, and they have a special weapon for flanking. So I completely disagree with the actual state of G43, which is a middle distance weapon, best used while moving. G43 should be what it allways been, in reality, in COH1 and for a while in COH2 too: an accurate range weapon.

LELIC, please make G43 a range weapon again, that will destroy the soviet hordes

totally disagree with this. Grenadiers are the least micro intensive line infantry and the us rifles squad grenade, whilst pretty good, is easier to dodge then grenadier rifle nade.

The one shot wiping thing can happen to any squad, on any faction. I've lost as many volks, scripts, rifles to one shot muggery as I have grens.

But what about 1919 Rifles? The 1919 is essentially an LMG42 in all respects and Riflemen have 5 men AND better received accuracy.

The M1919 costs 15mu more than the LMG42 AND does less dps. It is deliberately overpriced to account for the fact that it can be put on a more durable squad and that two of them can be purchased. Riflemen also cost 40 more MP than grens do while individual entity performance is worse until vet3 to account for the extra soldier. I think you would agree that m1919 riflemen are hard enough to deal with, we don't need a 240mp/60mu squad with similar dps and better survivability until vet3 arrives. That is why in my original post I discuss the trade offs grens would have to make if you wanted to add a 5th man. LMG damage and/or price would have to be one of those trade offs.