Air Supremacy is just completely OP

And an Emplacement that you can rebuild instantly if you wanted is not equal to a tech building that can't be replaced for several minutes if you can afford it at all.

sorry but you forget that

1)British emplacements cost alot more then OKW trucks
2)British dont flow MP
3)Emplacements have pop cap so you have a smaller army then the enemy(unlike OKW trucks)
4)British emplacements get 2 shotted by mortar halftrucks
5)British emplacements are not as durable as OKW trucks

If this ability is reduced in cost it will be seen even more often because it will be cheaper. Even a lesser version of this bombing run would be brutal if it could be dropped every 3 minutes off cool down.

Reminder here, the bombing run does not always destroy OKW trucks. It comes very late (OKW should already have units from those trucks, if you lost those units you are being punished now because you did not preserve your units). It is destroying relatively cheap structures, 200MP at most 80Fuel. 3 minute delay to rebuild tech is very short in late game. You are looking at one push and you can have your structure back up, if you want it. OKW is being designed for strong early game and weaker late game, so we should expect to see their raw power falling off as game progresses. Counterplay is to expect to lose your structures after the 25 minute mark if they are far forward, or build in base from beginning. Brits have limited options to dig out entrenched opponents so this prevents OKW fortifications doc from being picked every game. Ability should never kill mobile units, you should always dodge it.

I find this all very rich when the Wehr has Stuka dive bomb in multilple docs, and in a doc that can feed it munitions no less, and wipe out 600 MP artillery units with literally 0 counterplay. I cannot build them in my base sector (though it doesn't matter), I cannot survive ever from a hit, I cannot shoot down the plane.

If OKW is vulnerable to one off map late game Brit ability that can destroy some of their limited investment (literally the cost of 1 volks squad) you are in good standing. He could have used so many more effective uses of that munitions to wipe squads long before that.

TL DR: Ability is strong, but fine. When you play Brits expect to need to replace your tier structures in the late game if you choose to be aggressive early game with them.

If Scavenge arty got tone down because it wiped USF base then Air Supremacy will get tonned down aswell. Case closed, We can all go home

Scavange arty was QUITE LITERALLY an IWIN button.

Air Supremacy doesn't grant you victory by annihilation 20 seconds after you click it.

This is the fundamental difference.

so a 325Munitions ability that has a delay and comes at 12cp is wiping your static positions late game NO KIDDING


why should the trucks even survive this???

because some people that need to L2P set up all their trucks and ISG's within 10m radius of each other and lost everything to a 15 second, 325 muni air strike, then they follow to take out their buttfrustrations on the forums

Pure tech structure is OST or SU building.

I hardly call Panzer Schwerer only a tech structure, I mean, what tech structure is able to kill T34/76 in 1v1??

It keeps infantry and light armor at distance. It kills them very well. It is your first "unit" to protect your frontline. Hardly any tech structure can do that.

As for the people saying that OKW is designed from the beggining to put trucks out of the base - sure, but if you use that argument, I must remind you that OKW was designed to put 1 Truck on 1 point to creat chain resource, not all 3 trucks next to each other.

agreed this is op. it destroys OKW truck 1 shot

I like that they have a super potent late game arty strike to break up an LEIG, raketen, AA truck hard point but I agree it should never one shot a full health truck. Maybe make the attack have wider area of effect or decrease time from call in to strike but then decrease damage so it will level infantry, support guns, etc who don't get out of the way but won't be able to wipe out such a big investment with one click

Pure tech structure is OST or SU building.

I hardly call Panzer Schwerer only a tech structure, I mean, what tech structure is able to kill T34/76 in 1v1??

It keeps infantry and light armor at distance. It kills them very well. It is your first "unit" to protect your frontline. Hardly any tech structure can do that.

As for the people saying that OKW is designed from the beggining to put trucks out of the base - sure, but if you use that argument, I must remind you that OKW was designed to put 1 Truck on 1 point to creat chain resource, not all 3 trucks next to each other.

See my reply below. It should be very powerful since it has no heavies (although that's argument for buffing lots of Ost/SU commanders who have no heavies or good off map) but being able to one shot such a large fuel investment in a fuel poor faction is dumb. I mean the V1 in vCOH didn't even do that to full health British trucks. Now if they made it do half trick damage then I'd be fine with that. But definitely not annihilating full health truck

325 ammo...for a dodgeable bombing (only okw trucks get rekt).

Comes late.

...325 ammo...

Okay not even going to get into an argument here with the people defending this ability (because just lol) and I'm going to highlight why it's broken and should not be the way it is.

The bombs dropped are tactical bomber bombs (which are very similar to IL-2 bombs but have a much better AoE profile), the cost of an IL-2 bombing run is 200 munitions. This ability is essentially 3 200 munition abilities all packed into one, and it's capable of putting out 300 damage per bomb at 4 bombs per plane and 3 planes that's 3600 spread out over a massive area, no other artillery in the game is capable of that amount of damage instantaneously (I say instant because the bombs all drop relatively at the same time). If 4 bombs from 1 plane hit an HQ truck it will die, so with decent RNG you can kill 3 trucks in 1 use of this ability. And because the bombs have such a high AoE it's easy for them to damage multiple trucks.

To put this in perspective, each individual bomb has a 1 shot radius for infantry of 7.5, that's huge. So it's essentially an ability that should cost 600 munitions (or more since the AoE profile on Tac Bombs is a lot better than IL-2 ones) at it's current level of performance.

Some Fun Facts (or well ones related to the people comparing this ability to):

-Zeroing Artillery is one of the most bugged abilities in the game and the massive ramp up time talks up a large portion of the actual "barrage" time so you can have a unit enter it's blast zone, and walk all the way through the middle of it to the other side before the shells actually start landing. It also works on an interval checking checking for units in the area meaning if you catch something in it just after the last "check" it won't get attacked for another 4.25 seconds. So to kill something with it you not only need perfect sight (the interval resets if you lose sight) but need to still wait for the attack and unlike the description suggests the shells don't actually get quicker faster or deadlier the longer your in the barrage zone.

-Scavenge only goes up to 600 munitions and only starts scaling at 300, the max amount of shells you can have per call in is 35. And since most people just walk out of the area afterwards there's no real point in saving up munitions to get the extra shells. It should honestly just not be enabled to be called on base territory and get it's old scaling back (or get better scaling)

-The bomber models in game aren't actually Lancaster's, for maximum irony (and I seriously hope Relic intended this lol) they are HE 111's so if you could look in game you would see this lol




I assume this is because Ostheer has a tactical bombing ability and Relic decided to just copy paste it (although the Ostheer one each plane is one after another at a much slower speed).

Okay not even going to get into an argument here with the people defending this ability (because just lol) and I'm going to highlight why it's broken and should not be the way it is.

While you did belittle everyone defending this ability you also made an argument for why it should be changed by arguing that the ability is not in line with other off maps.

Call a spade a spade please.

So OKW off map is not particularly good, in general I agree. Since you mentioned it the 200 munitions off map IL2 can almost kill a base structure, it just needs one penal satchel to complete it. Arguably that is 245 munitions. Also unlike the Soviets the Brits don't float munitions as easily. They have to pay to upgrade all of their units, and so are munitions limited. They also consume munitions at a phenomenal rate if they get just one firefly, ever.

Bad off maps for one faction do not force off maps of another faction to be bad. Also what is your thoughts on Stuka Dive Bomb (more easily available) completely wiping an arty piece, with 0 counter play? I believe you in fact suggested at one point OKW be given this ability. How does this differ from wiping a 200 MP 40/80 F structure (which does have some counterplay).

The lolz to He111's doing the bombing, ahh Relic. Also the line of bombers is funny, stupid, but funny.

Bad off maps for one faction do not force off maps of another faction to be bad. Also what is your thoughts on Stuka Dive Bomb (more easily available) completely wiping an arty piece, with 0 counter play? I believe you in fact suggested at one point OKW be given this ability. How does this differ from wiping a 200 MP 40/80 F structure (which does have some counterplay).

alright... lets give... lets say okw an "i win" ability for say 1000 mun.
just because all other commanders abilities suck, doesnt mean okws have to suck, right?

you can save arty pieces by denying sight. what about pak43s getting oneshot by offmap arty? or crocs just driving up to them and decrewing them?

sry, but a broken ability stays broken, no matter how you want to justify it. air supremacy is one of those abilities.

While you did belittle everyone defending this ability you also made an argument for why it should be changed by arguing that the ability is not in line with other off maps.

I said "because just lol" since none of the arguments being presented here make sense because the abilities it's being compared to are either broken (in the sense they don't even work correctly) or just not that great. Saying someone's argument is not sound is not the same as saying they are dumb, hope this helps.

So OKW off map is not particularly good, in general I agree. Since you mentioned it the 200 munitions off map IL2 can almost kill a base structure, it just needs one penal satchel to complete it

Yes but generally these/this ability is used in combined with a general push. If all the OKW trucks are almost completely dead than killing them isn't hard. Also OKW relies pretty heavily on Sturms in combat so you need to retreat all your CQC troops to your HQ's to repair them.

Also unlike the Soviets the Brits don't float munitions as easily. They have to pay to upgrade all of their units, and so are munitions limited. They also consume munitions at a phenomenal rate if they get just one firefly, ever.

How much munitions are floated depends on the will of the player. I never float as Soviets because I spam demo's and mines like a drunk. Also typically you won't spend THAT much munitions as Brits because 2 IS with full upgrades can hold the line pretty easily (speaking 2v2 here). On top of that Brits have free late game upgrades in the form of Heavy Engineers.

Bad off maps for one faction do not force off maps of another faction to be bad.

You could reduce the damage of the bombs to 160, or increase the time between bombers by a lot and it would still be very, very good.

Also what is your thoughts on Stuka Dive Bomb (more easily available) completely wiping an arty piece, with 0 counter play?

Because that's a doctrinal counter to counter another doctrinal unit. If you don't pick Stuka Dive Bomb when your enemy has howitzers thats on you, but you can't really afford to just not play OKW as it was intended to play with forward truck placement because the enemy MAYBE will later on pick a commander.

Think about it like this, Stuka dive bomb is countering a 600 MP artillery piece. Air Supremacy is literally countering OKW's entire design.

I believe you in fact suggested at one point OKW be given this ability. How does this differ from wiping a 200 MP 40/80 F structure (which does have some counterplay).

I suggested it be given (although I said it should be a ME262 bombing run because late war and all that, also would thematically explain why it couldn't be shot down) to OKW because OKW has no 100% reliable Howi counter.

Also there really isn't any counter-play against Air Supremacy, OKW can't afford to just ignore their core faction design. The whole "put HQ's in base" thing is silly because you need to have your med truck forward as your basic infantry relies on attrition to beat the enemy not outright beat them 1 on 1. And the "spread you HQ's" doesn't work on every map (for example Trois Point) because the area of the bombers attack is so massive.

There are a few misrepresented points which are being repeated throughout this thread. Which I would like to address in addition to giving my opinion on the ability.

First my observations of this ability in game. Air Supremacy has the largest AoE in the game. The circle of possible effect can encapsulate an entire sector though often bombs will not fall upon the entire sector. This is due to the bomber's formation and spawning mechanics. The bombers will always fly in a straight line away from the allied base to the target location. Since the bombers fly in a line and the bombs have a chance to be dropped to either side of the line the resulting bomb pattern is more oval shaped that circular.
Show Spoiler
The ability does have a long delay though depending on the positioning and type of unit in the circle they may not have enough time to get out unscathed. Take for instance a squad at the top part of the circle. If they retreat before the bombers come they have to transverse the entire circle back to base and may get hit by the bombers because pathing issues may delay the squad long enough to still be in the AoE by the time the bombs drop. A very slow vehicle such as a Jadgtiger if in the middle has very little hope of getting out unscathed.

Lastly, for OKW truck deployment there are deployment patterns to avoid multiple truck getting killed. Since the bombers form a line coming from the Allied base, deploy the trucks in a line perpendicular to the bomber path so only one truck could be hit from air supremacy.
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The middle truck is going to die but the other two will be mostly unharmed unless RNG decides to drop a bomb or two near them but for the most part they will survive.

I feel people are not appreciating the full the effects of this ability on a battlefield. The AoE encompasses a large area and for the duration of the bombing run that area is effectively locked down. This means troops will have to evacuate that area and circumvent the area until the bombing is done. Calling this in as the Axis is making a push will delay their push and if they are oblivious it will destroy their push. If an Axis player has dug in on a point this ability can clear the point of most troops and effectively convert it into neutral ground which neither side has control but with the Axis forces disorganized or retreating this proves a perfect opportunity to advance.

Calling this ability on a truck confirms that truck will die. Two bad case scenarios are it's a medic truck with retreat point upgrade so 500 MP and 40 fuel with troops who just arrived from retreating. OR a mechanized headquarters with tanks repairing. This means for 3+ mins the player will not be able to heal his troops, have a forward retreat point, and pull any of that truck's units + the kingtiger.

I had a whole lot more but the website logged me out and deleted everything T.T

Yes but generally these/this ability is used in combined with a general push. If all the OKW trucks are almost completely dead than killing them isn't hard. Also OKW relies pretty heavily on Sturms in combat so you need to retreat all your CQC troops to your HQ's to repair them.

?

If your HQ's are taking damage before the bombing run they are near the front line and that is a risk you run. If you don't want to repair them don't build them that close. If they survive it and its a general push, don't you want the player to use his abilities in a combined arms fashion to win? Isn't that the point?

How much munitions are floated depends on the will of the player. I never float as Soviets because I spam demo's and mines like a drunk. Also typically you won't spend THAT much munitions as Brits because 2 IS with full upgrades can hold the line pretty easily (speaking 2v2 here). On top of that Brits have free late game upgrades in the form of Heavy Engineers.

Larger point, Soviets have more munitions play style aside.

You could reduce the damage of the bombs to 160, or increase the time between bombers by a lot and it would still be very, very good.

And leave the cost the same? I don't think so. The hugely high cost offsets any reduction in the ability. If you want to reduce the ability in any way the munitions cost should come down so it does not completely wipe out the munitions of the Brit player. This ability is designed to be used once in smaller games (maybe more in others) and so has to be devastating effect.

Because that's a doctrinal counter to counter another doctrinal unit. If you don't pick Stuka Dive Bomb when your enemy has howitzers thats on you, but you can't really afford to just not play OKW as it was intended to play with forward truck placement because the enemy MAYBE will later on pick a commander.

Think about it like this, Stuka dive bomb is countering a 600 MP artillery piece. Air Supremacy is literally countering OKW's entire design.

I suggested it be given (although I said it should be a ME262 bombing run because late war and all that, also would thematically explain why it couldn't be shot down) to OKW because OKW has no 100% reliable Howi counter.

Air Supremacy is countering, in the late game, aggressive FHQ. Seen plenty of players build some or none of their FHQ's outside of their base sector. It is countering one design, if it gets picked, if the player stores up enough munitions, if they get lucky that the bombs wipe the structure.

Stuka dive bomb is a straight up gaurantee to destroy artillery, it is a binomial counter. Do I have Stuka if yes arty is useless if no arty is useful. Whereas AS is more like, does he have AS maybe I should be careful with FHQ's I want in the late game, or maybe I think I can beat him before that. If not I do exactly what I wanted before.

Also there really isn't any counter-play against Air Supremacy, OKW can't afford to just ignore their core faction design. The whole "put HQ's in base" thing is silly because you need to have your med truck forward as your basic infantry relies on attrition to beat the enemy not outright beat them 1 on 1. And the "spread you HQ's" doesn't work on every map (for example Trois Point) because the area of the bombers attack is so massive.

No its not, that's opinion. OKW work wonders with base trucks in their sectors. They can help teammates and are always protected from artillery, they also prevent your opponent from knowing what tech structure you are developing. The lock down trucks are a hold over from an earlier OKW design, actually not core to the faction anymore. OKW infantry straight up beat other infantry in one on one fights (usually). They win by intelligent placement. It is laziness that gets us to the attrition argument. If you think Obers win by attrition, or Falls, or Jaegers, or Sturms you are outright using them incorrectly. Volks, one unit, yes, until it reaches higher vet levels and is outright better.

You can definitely always space out your HQ's. No map requires them to all be build so close they can get killed. If you lack map control to hold the territory to protect them build them in base sectors or better control the map.

What about this: Once destroyed an OKW truck takes only half the resources to be redeployed. By this the one click no skill ability wouldn't be as punishing as it is? This would allow okw players also to come back in game easier.

what about once destroyed, only half the resources to be redeployed in the BASE SECTOR.

although i think these super abilities are still problematic.

OKW gets quick area denying units at the get go (sturmpios and kubels), gets a tough retreat point very early, an uber-area denying "truck" fairly early, get's area denying non-doc arty in two flavors, then add on the super-tanks and other doctrine units for area denying. And yet then OKW complains about a very late game expensive strike that is designed to deny the very area that OKW camps on with the afore mentioned advantages?

Gimme a break.

alright... lets give... lets say okw an "i win" ability for say 1000 mun.
just because all other commanders abilities suck, doesnt mean okws have to suck, right?

you can save arty pieces by denying sight. what about pak43s getting oneshot by offmap arty? or crocs just driving up to them and decrewing them?

sry, but a broken ability stays broken, no matter how you want to justify it. air supremacy is one of those abilities.

AS is hardly and I win button. OKW don't have to suck you can suggest changes to them in another thread. Make one I would be happy to comment.

You cannot deny sight with to German players. They have a straight up wall hack unit, unshootable sight generators (artillery flares), numerous overflight options (which usually cannot be shot down before they provide sight, and air attacks which also provide bonus vision in a narrower cone, besides infiltration units which can pop out of buildings in numerous docs, and spotting scopes. Short and sweet when I play German if I want sight I will get sight, I just need to decide how.

Please feel free to upload a video of AS being OP and deciding the outcome of a game where the player who used it should have lost, but didn't because of it.

Pak 43 is just a weird comment. Unit is amazing in certain niches, and its life span is irrelevant frequently because in 1-2 shots it should pay for itself. Also the bombing run you are talking about (Soviet one I assume) can be shot down, by more plentiful German AA. The Croc if it decides to go toe to toe with a Pak 43 should be absolutely devastated by the Pak 43. Oh and at vet 1 you can just stun the croc and then finish it off. Are you saying because the Pak 43 can be killed by off maps we shouldn't have off maps? Or are you saying off maps should not one shot buildings, because the Germans are far more guilty of one shotting buildings with offmaps than Allies are.

There is another elephant in the room as well, The Special Weapons Regiment
Railway artillery will one shot a truck for 250 munitions and can be called in without vision on the truck. In a doctrine with a croc.

I can see good argument for not letting Stuka decrew or destroy Artillery outright since it's a big MP investment and only counter is to never let enemy get LOS but that's pretty freaking tough to prevent. However I think all the COH1 strikes could destroy or at least decrew 105 build able howitzer and yet people still built them in some tournament games. I do like the change of not being able to bomb in the base. Although I loved laying a V1 on triage center in enemy base right as a bunch of soldiers were coming back on retreat

AS is hardly and I win button. OKW don't have to suck you can suggest changes to them in another thread. Make one I would be happy to comment.

You cannot deny sight with to German players. They have a straight up wall hack unit, unshootable sight generators (artillery flares), numerous overflight options (which usually cannot be shot down before they provide sight, and air attacks which also provide bonus vision in a narrower cone, besides infiltration units which can pop out of buildings in numerous docs, and spotting scopes. Short and sweet when I play German if I want sight I will get sight, I just need to decide how.

Please feel free to upload a video of AS being OP and deciding the outcome of a game where the player who used it should have lost, but didn't because of it.

Pak 43 is just a weird comment. Unit is amazing in certain niches, and its life span is irrelevant frequently because in 1-2 shots it should pay for itself. Also the bombing run you are talking about (Soviet one I assume) can be shot down, by more plentiful German AA. The Croc if it decides to go toe to toe with a Pak 43 should be absolutely devastated by the Pak 43. Oh and at vet 1 you can just stun the croc and then finish it off. Are you saying because the Pak 43 can be killed by off maps we shouldn't have off maps? Or are you saying off maps should not one shot buildings, because the Germans are far more guilty of one shotting buildings with offmaps than Allies are.

the "i win" button was hyperbole. replay, as requested:

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  VS

  Apfelsaft Xystophoroi

  Korb! cr4wler

  If you say Brit's aint OP, watch this...

  by: Apfelsaft map: Minsk Pocket

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if pak43 pays for itself by shooting once or twice, then all emplacements pay for themselves simply by getting built. what i'm saying is that a croc shouldn't just be able to drive up to a pak43, decrew it, and drive out. no replay here, but i had that happen to me once, where a croc drives up to pak43, decrews it with one flame shot, drives out... all the while getting shot at by the pak43, a pak 40 and a tiger. admittedly, that was back when it still had 1600hp. still, i'm not even complaining too hard about the croc, because if it gets nerfed a lot, it'll be way too weak for the time it comes and its cost. but air supremacy is way too strong, no argueing about that.

btw, infrared doesnt give LoS, it only lets you see where the units are. it's very strong, but on the other hand has no weapon and gets oneshot if anything gets close.