balance preview mod rifle buff

@ignores retarded reply from alex. Comparing rifles to Pgrens requires an amount of self denial i dont feel like engaging in. Still waiting for the 1v1 PM

rifle cost is 280 vs 240 for grens


double Bars 120 vs 60muni for grens

Usf bar and zook tech 150mp and 15 fuel OST = FUCKING FREE

RIFLES SHOULD BE BETTER. ITS IN THERE DESCRIPTION FOR CRYING OUT LOUD !

I already mention that the bar is overpriced. It's not worth 120 mu.

Furthermore, the bonus are multiplicative. The same percent bonus on two different unit will have different effect because the raw bonus will be different. 10 x 1.3 is different from 8 x 1.3.

I am saying the bar needs to be cheaper before any buff to the rifleman itself. I mean the rifleman already have near identical multiplicative bonus as the grenadier.

A green rifleman will walk over a green grenadier easily. The rifleman only fall behind because the bar is inferior to the lmg42.

As I said before the gren and rifleman get the same multiplicative bonus, but the gren bonus is applied to the powerful lmg42 compared to the rather weak BAR.

A green rifleman will walk over a green grenadier easily. The rifleman only fall behind because the bar is inferior to the lmg42.

As they should. Leave your infantry unsupported and better more expensive infantry should win. PERIOD

Its not like grens are able to get support b4 usf does... oh shit!

As they should. Leave your infantry unsupported and better more expensive infantry should win. PERIOD

Its not like grens are able to get support b4 usf does... oh shit!

the point is that the base rifleman is already a superior unit to the base grenadier. What's causing the rifleman to under perform late game is the BAR.

RIP thread.

It's not my fault you have a meltdown every time I post dude. Just calm down.

Im glad usf has other non doc elite infantry. RIFLEMEN ARE THE ELITE INFANTRY. THEY ARE ALSO THE STARITNG INFANTRY.

USF has the option of supplementing it's infantry forces with it's build unit (can be upgraded with BARS to enact more efficient combat performance) like most factions do, USF has access to a powerful upgrade to it's base infantry in Infantry Company, 2 Elite options in Airborne, and now that Ass Engines have been "buffed" access to flamethrower units in 2 doctrines. USF is also getting 3 new commanders that will also probably contain elite infantry.

Ostheer doesn't have elite infantry in or out of doctrines. Storms are just Pgrens with worse veteranacy and a massive price tag while Ostruppenn are well, Osttruppen. Ass Grens can't really be considered "elite either".

Basically my point is the lack of a non-doctrinal elite infantry option is not a reason to over buff Riflemen when USF support weapons have received significant buffs.

Unbelievable

You find it unbelievable that other units in the game need upgrades to be effective

So you'd rather fight 6 men rifle. Lmao

It would be a way of giving Riflemen more survability in general without making them TO survivable versus small arms fire. Also would give a small DPS boost to!

Immature,lol,its fatigue from having these arguements with you every week.

If you are to tired of fatigued to be mature then that is your issue to deal with.

you suggesting that grenadiers dont have an LMG late game(they have them 5 minutes into the game,its not a matter of upgrading late game,you upgrade at 5 minutes or lose every inf fight to lmg grens.

Your proving my point that "Rifles are not the only ones that need to be upgraded to preform at max". But I was merely refuting your statement that rifles were unique in that they need upgrades to scale, almost every squad needs upgrades to scale. It IS worth mentioning that early into the game rifles do maintain and distinct advantage toe to toe with other infantry.

You acting as if sturms are the only infantry OKW has,is the reason im "immature" at this point.

Using Volks to take on riflemen is not the best of ideas. Sturms are great because they can beat riflemen up close were Riflemen are normally strongest. Basically you need a combination of Volks and Sturm, but I prefer to always have an extra Sturm (basically 2 each). Rifles attempt to close to kill Volks, Sturms can ward of rifles. A song an dance repeated many times.

You need two 60 muni weapons and vet 3 to compete without bleedig like a pig,

This could be fixed by merely reducing the muni cost of upgrades or adding cheaper reinforce at vet 3 rather than making riflemen very durable against small arms fire for a 5 man squad.

and once you get the weapon and the vet,your squad STILL isnt among the best squads in the game?

If your looking to want "Get vet 3 + upgrades then sweep wall of death across map" I recommend a time travel machine to take you back to OKW vis a vis this past February.

How much sense does that make?

About as much sense as a 280 MP non-doctrinal 5 squad having better received accuracy than a doctrinal 440 MP 4 man squad.

Ostheer has alot of other things going for them.(They only lack "elite inf"(LMG Grens dont exist?)

LMG grens are not elite infantry, but again you are reinforcing my point that Rifles are not the only unit that needs upgrades to be effective or "scale"

and they dont have GREAT artillery.(even though panzerwerfer is getting a huge buff soon)

The ninja change they hit it with put it in the grave, it's AoE is now pathetic in the extreme.

Please dont act like ostheer is suddenly in the shit because they dont have SS Panzergrenadiers and Dora artillery.. Seriously.

Exactly, USF with the buffs it's getting won't be "in the shit" it's just that the Rifle buff is not needed in the context of the other buffs USF is receiving!

Again,riflemen,are the elite infantry,they are the AT infantry,they are the heavy infantry,THEY ARE THE INFANTRY,AND THEY NEED TO BE AS GOOD AS THEY ARE NOW.

You can either be good at 1 thing because your specialized or "okay" at everything. Why should Rifles not follow this formula? There is nothing wrong with Riflemen being "okay" at everything, but giving them hyper good received accuracy would make them to good against enemy infantry considering specialized units would be worse than them at it.

More arguing just to argue. OKW has more infantry types,and more infantry. because they have a fuck ton of manpower vs usf. Clearly their infantry isnt lacking. That is what I meant. Twist it how you may.

Dude the reason why OKW has a lot of infantry is because they have very few vehicles. OKW doesn't have some magical +5 MP modifier on it, the faction just relies of using lots of infantry to make up for lack of tanks. I never said they were lacking at all.

280+120 only rivals 400/60 of obers,which btw,obers are better than rifles assuming max vet on both. and 280+120= more by a long shot than all the other units you mentioned. BECAUSE THEY NEED 2 UPGRADES TO BE WORTH MORE.

MP to munitions is not a 1 to 1 conversion. Generally the accepted formula is 1 MP = 3 munitions. So it's 280 + 40, not 280 + 120. Obers ARE better than rifles at max vet! I would certainly hope an extremely expensive specialized unit could do what it's supposed to do! You make a good case for making the BAR 50 munitions, but not a good one for hyper good Rec Ac on Rifles.

So you just leave your falls to die after spawning them? Or do you mix them into your force and let them vet? I mean really?

I normally just doesn't use them because they are inefficient as hell and come in a shitty doctrine but when I do I used them to hunt individual squads, not throw them into a blob.

Congrats? None of this arty proliferation exists with usf,unless you count the unreleased calliope.

Mortar HT and Priest got buffed, and yes are you pointed out USF will be getting more indirect. The Pack Howi also got a very big ninja buff. But still in general I don't float MP or play defensively against USF at all. (This isn't mention USF has abilities like Mech Arty, Armor Arty, and Time on Target to kill trucks on other defensive shit also Major Arty got fixed!).

What? Yes we are comparing max vet obers with max vet rifles with 2 upgrades. And the obers win. assuming max vet and upgrade!!! You know,we're talking about SCALING and all.

Max Vet obers are rare, Vet 3 rifles are not. I compare things on equal levels of Vet because Vet 4 and Vet 5 are intentionally designed to be hard to obtain. There is also a point to be made that the fact that Vet 4-5 Obers are awesome doesn't make it necessary for rifles to receive a massive Rec Ac since Vet 4-5 Obers are designed to be very versatile specialist expensive units which is the opposite of how rifles work.

Because fighting this huge amount of useful vetted riflemen in a long game all the sudden wont allow obers to vet.

No they will vet, but Vet 4-5 is still not common by any stretch of the imagination. And again; this isn't about the fact that a specialist unit like Obers at vet 4 is great, it's that Rifles don't need extremely powerful Rec Acc relative to other units that cost more but are smaller.

Please stop ruining threads

I don't see how offering useful information to members of discussions is ruining threads? I mean I'm just here to help dude

They also move slow as molasses. And cant dodge anything explosive without retreating.

It's almost as if that is to balance out them being extremely survivable

Must charge into dick touching range,so they need this vitality

It's almost as if that is to balance out them being extremely survivable

A unit that will probably be nerfed because of axis fill in the blanks like you

Please stop with the personal attacks.

Ok mr stat,tell me how many OKW units are within .20 of those units you just listed?

Number 6 is the new Vet 3 Cons (.65 Rec Acc on 6 man squad Kreygasm) survivablity is about squad number + rec acc and armor not just rec acc.

no. the way the 10% reduction is kind of misleading. obers are now 40, falls 38, pgrens 34.

Ah awesome, yeah saying 10% reduction is kinda misleading.

I'll save you the time and effort, and the others reading this drivel their sanity.


in the future;Don't bother typing another one of those long ass posts to me.


You are literally a thread killer. It is so pointless to argue and discuss with you. You're never wrong,you never agree or settle with anything, and you continually spam your opinion in these page-killing paragraphs until the other person gives up. completely pointless. You accomplished absolutely nothing but making this thread a bitch to scroll through.

the point is that the base rifleman is already a superior unit to the base grenadier. What's causing the rifleman to under perform late game is the BAR.

You are partially correct. Thats why the BAr and the rifles themselves are getting buffed

Actually a large amount of them do. Obers need their LMG to be useful (75 muni), Stormtroopers need StG's (100 muni), Volks need Shreks (112 muni), and the best thing about JLI is their munitions based abilities such as Booby Trap and Sprint.

Since when is a shreck an upgrade volks require to compete with other infantry? Last time I checked it was an at weapon that should lower the squads ai capability (excluding rng snipes).

MP to munitions is not a 1 to 1 conversion. Generally the accepted formula is 1 MP = 3 munitions. So it's 280 + 40, not 280 + 120. Obers ARE better than rifles at max vet! I would certainly hope an extremely expensive specialized unit could do what it's supposed to do! You make a good case for making the BAR 50 munitions, but not a good one for hyper good Rec Ac on Rifles.

This is complete fiction. First of all there is not an accepted formula. Second of all, all recources are always worth more, not less, in manpower. The only indication that we have in the game, is the Luftwaffe Supply Drop Zone, which grants 150 munition for 200 manpower. This is an exchange rate of 1 ammo being worth 1.33 manpower.
If we actually used this exchange rate and not some stuff we just make up we end up with the following: 280 + 120*1.33 = 280 + 160 = 440 (this result ignores that bars need to be researched).

Please refrain from completely making stuff up and presenting it as a fact.

I will reserve judgement on the actual balance of the 25% received accuracy for when I've had a change to play with and against it but it does seem odd for rifles to get such a huge bump in survivability upon hitting vet 3 compared to their other levels of veterancy. It may be better to space the upgrade out between vet 2 and vet 3 (10% at vet 2 and 15% at vet 3) so that rifles scale more organically into the late game and won't bleed as badly if they haven't vet 3 yet.

Since when is a shreck an upgrade volks require to compete with other infantry? Last time I checked it was an at weapon that should lower the squads ai capability (excluding rng snipes).

Because Volks have nothing else that makes them attractive outside of their ability to carry a shrek.

This is complete fiction. First of all there is not an accepted formula. Second of all, all recources are always worth more, not less, in manpower. The only indication that we have in the game, is the Luftwaffe Supply Drop Zone, which grants 150 munition for 200 manpower. This is an exchange rate of 1 ammo being worth 1.33 manpower.
If we actually used this exchange rate and not some stuff we just make up we and up with the following: 280 + 120*1.33 = 280 + 160 = 440 (this result ignores that bars need to be researched).

Please refrain from completely making stuff up and presenting it as a fact.

Yeah I don't know why I thought it was 1 for 3 instead of 1.33 for 1 (happens when your having to make so many points at the same time). Regardless, MP =/= Munitions, and acting like upgrades = manpower is pointless. The fact that BARS are 10 muni to expensive doesn't mean that Rifles need a massive buff to Received Accuracy.

Would be nice if you toned down the hostility, was just an honest mistake

Why can't the USF have nice things? Vet 3 rifles are fine. When fighting USF just concede the fact that your infantry will get overpowered if you don't utilize Sniper, HMGs, mines, etc to bleed out your opponent. This is better than the meta vs every Allied faction being lmg grens and Volks spam.

Yeah I don't know why I thought it was 1 for 3 instead of 1.33 for 1 (happens when your having to make so many points at the same time). Regardless, MP =/= Munitions, and acting like upgrades = manpower is pointless. The fact that BARS are 10 muni to expensive doesn't mean that Rifles need a massive buff to Received Accuracy.

I'm not arguing that it makes sense to compare units on that basis. I'm just here to call out painly wrong things.

The problem with rifles isn't the cost of the bar or their dps, it is that they die very easily in the late game. The patch addresses exactly that. Whether or not the modifier is too big is another thing.

Would be nice if you toned down the hostility, was just an honest mistake

There is no hostility here. It's a friendly request.

as long as it can make USF viable late game thats fine by me cuz USF is for the most part complete shit save for a few units