1600 health tanks.

You said no artillery, I corrected you.



You can't say free and priced at the same time.

Free as in built.

Again, 45 muni is nothing for what is does

the basic churchill is good enough to do signinfacnt damage for its cost it hsould have is2 health and armor minus the is2 firepower not more hp than the a lot more expensive heavies i think the basic churchill should have 1050 health and avre and churchill 800

And you know what would that translate to?

~1600 health with current armor.

You said no artillery, I corrected you.

are we arguing semantics now? I did said mention tommies artillery in my original post.

calling the Tommies's 25 pdr barragethe same type of artillery as the mortar/rockets/howitzer is a bit of a stretch. Even the US major's call in howizter is a better example of "artillery".

If someone is dug in enough to require the use of mortar/rockets/howitzer, the last thing I would want to do is to get a tommies up close and personal.

Axis should breathe a sigh of relief in the fact that they don't have to face RNG

lolwut? pshreks always penetrate t-34-85, maybe even isu. 1 of 2 bounces from is2 though. ZiS bounces 2 of 3 with bonus 12% bulletins' penetration from panther. Facing RNG, huh...

Something you guys may be overlooking is that, because the HP is so high, it takes a long time to repair these tanks. A bad engagement will mean the tank will be out of action for a long time, even if you didn't destroy it.

Considering that they come from the anvil path which makes the RE's even faster then sp's when it comes to repairing tanks this is really not a good argument. that said its to early to see if its unbalanced.

Considering the plathora of at options the axis has the standard churchill is fine, not only that its the only non doctorinal allied tank that can take a few hits from an elephant and jagtiger and screen for your tank destroyers/ at guns

It does feel like its way too much but lets wait and see

And you know what would that translate to?

~1600 health with current armor.

Except... it doesn't.
There's a huge difference between a high health and high armor unit.

Doctrinal wise Axis may rely on designated "super high" pen units, which won't work properly vs. this unit.

Same goes for flanking. A high hp pool is way less prone to flanking / rear armor shots.
Just think about this for a second: you need twice the rear armor shots on a Churchill, in comparison to a KV series, or any other "Heavy". Not 5... 10 penetrated rear armor shots. That's not a slight difference anymore.

And last but not least: Relic use, more or less, certain HP values for certain tank classes, and those < 40 ton Churchills just don't fit in with 1600hp, at all.
It's not intuitive, and doesn't make any sense either.

I can only imagine the shitstorm if they added the Churchill black prince in to the game.

please lelic

Except... it doesn't.
There's a huge difference between a high health and high armor unit.

It actually makes a difference only when fighting guaranteed penetration units like PaK43, ele or JT.
In that case, HP is better.
Against anything else, each bounce adds additional "hp".
Lets take StuG shooting at churchill and at IS-2.
Lets assume its on max range, so 170 penetration.
Vs churchill it have 58% chance to penetrate. For easier calculations, lets round it up to 60%.
Vs IS-2 it will have 45% chance to penetrate.

Vs churchill 6 out of 10 shots will penetrate and it needs 10 penetrations to kill it.
On average it needs 17 shots.

Vs IS-2 it needs 7 penetrating shots and 4,5 out of 10 shots will penetrate.
On average it needs 16-17 shots depending on armor RNG.

It means against non guaranteed penetration, current high hp and lower armor is the same as lower hp and higher armor, it all depends on how good the gun is, but anything with less then 100% penetration should work like this.

It means

Doctrinal wise Axis may rely on designated "super high" pen units, which won't work properly vs. this unit.

It means huge alpha damage weapons with low DPS are less effective then faster firing weapons with lower penetration. It means you want to have 2 fast firing medium AT units then single heavy one.

A pair of StuGs>>single panther.
Pair of JP4>>JT/panthers.

When combating churchills.

Same goes for flanking. A high hp pool is way less prone to flanking / rear armor shots.
Just think about this for a second: you need twice the rear armor shots on a Churchill, in comparison to a KV series, or any other "Heavy". Not 5... 10 penetrated rear armor shots. That's not a slight difference anymore.

True that, but that only further proves my point, multiple fast firing lighter AT units are better against them then single big slow firing ones with huge penetration.

And last but not least: Relic use, more or less, certain HP values for certain tank classes, and those < 40 ton Churchills just don't fit in with 1600hp, at all.
It's not intuitive, and doesn't make any sense either.

Relic simply went for asymmetry here.
If they went with the "old way", we'd have 1040 hp 350-375 armor churchills.

Late war churchills outclass KV-1 by a long shot in both, armament and armor, frontal armor specifically, MK VII had more then Tiger on the front.

Late war churchills outclass KV-1 by a long shot in both, armament and armor, frontal armor specifically, MK VII had more then Tiger on the front.

That doesn´t proof anything. The Kingtiger is stuck with IS-2 frontal armor, despite having more.

The health pool of 1600 seems random and way too large. We have Panthers with the HP of a T-34/85... no justification to introduce a unit with a third to twice more the hitpoints of its counterparts (KV, IS-2, Tiger).

I think the normal chruchill isnt that bad, but the other two variants...

Its a very VERY low risk, guaranteed reward unit.

You drive up under AT gun fire, kill a few models/weapon teams, reverse, repair.

Unless they have mines or a few units with TWP then youre fine to just keep harassing with it.


Ostheer are fine to deal with them imo. But since the only OKW stunshot is on a puma, and their infantry lack snares, they struggle abit more imo.

Stock Churchill is a breakthrough tank, it should be a punching bag.

Someone said that the AVRE and croc have lower HP and armour, anyone know if this is true?

That doesn´t proof anything. The Kingtiger is stuck with IS-2 frontal armor, despite having more.

KT have more health. Combination of armor and health makes KT more survivable.
BOOM! Your poor counter argument attempt only reinforced mine.

The health pool of 1600 seems random and way too large. We have Panthers with the HP of a T-34/85... no justification to introduce a unit with a third to twice more the hitpoints of its counterparts (KV, IS-2, Tiger).

You have math above.
And do I really need to explain it all again with T34/85 800 hp and 160 armor vs Panthers 800 HP and 320 armor? Is it really the same for you?

It's interesting how relic seemed to have the "lel kruppsteel mindset" when developing the brits.

Balance aside, it's intresting to see how the firefly has the highest accuracy out of absolutely any tank gun in the game, while in real life it literally had the worst accuracy out of any gun at long range.


Meanwhile churchill has 1600hp.

Somewhere in a dark conrner KV-1 and KV-2 is crying, despite the KV-1 costing only 5 fuel less has less armor, 2 times less health, hugely inferior gun againts infantry and tanks, and KV-2 also has 2 less health and a incomparably worse gun than the AVRE

Meanwhile most brit tanks have free blitz from hammer specialization, not to mention that the cromweel and comet have m10 speed and crush. Cromwell costs same as a sherman, yet has way more speed, way better vet, and a much, much stronger gun againts armor.

Brit 6 pounder was carbon copy of american 57mm, yet in game 6 pounder has 190 pen (same as pak-40) while 57mm has 115 pen , dat shitty murican ammunition

The comets design is just hilarious, panther level armor while IRL it was about as good as a sherman E8/T-34-85.


RIP USF


Long live the brits


BTW: Not a balance rant, just some interesting observations.

I think the normal chruchill isnt that bad, but the other two variants...

Its a very VERY low risk, guaranteed reward unit.

You drive up under AT gun fire, kill a few models/weapon teams, reverse, repair.

Unless they have mines or a few units with TWP then youre fine to just keep harassing with it.


Ostheer are fine to deal with them imo. But since the only OKW stunshot is on a puma, and their infantry lack snares, they struggle abit more imo.

Sounds like the sturmtiger?

churchill harder than a tiger ... is stupid relic

the tiger is very expensive for what it does ....

coh1 tiger is perfect

I think you'll find it's Leyland steel.

and I would like to remodel Tiger 3d model is very shoddy in comparison to the new tanks etc.

some justice to the most famous tank ..

this very abandoned in this game ..

It actually makes a difference only when fighting guaranteed penetration units like PaK43, ele or JT.
In that case, HP is better.

You remove the whole point of these options, while still having a highly increased TTK with basic AT weaponary - how is this a good approach again?

...True that, but that only further proves my point, multiple fast firing lighter AT units are better against them then single big slow firing ones with huge penetration.

Sadly, it does not.
Even if you gain more fast firing lighter AT for flanking, the TTK is highly (!) increased. You don't have any logical option to actually counter it. High armor units are usually prone to high pen or rear flanking. Health due plain ROF. This unit ignores both.

Relic simply went for asymmetry here.
If they went with the "old way", we'd have 1040 hp 350-375 armor churchills.

I'm completely missing an argument here
"Asymmetry". Maybe we should bring back the old ISU & Ele, you know... for asymmetry.
The "old way" could also mean a more reasonable 1040 hp & 300 armor, and gain 1280hp with veterancy - as an example. And / or you adjust cost, or give it certain specials to fulfill it's role (oh wait, it already has those).

Late war churchills outclass KV-1 by a long shot in both, armament and armor, frontal armor specifically, MK VII had more then Tiger on the front.

Missing an argument, again
With 280 front armor ingame, it pretty much has the Tigers armor already. It should outclass the KV series, no doubt about it, but doubling it's HP pool is beyond reasonable... and let's not even talk about the specials.


If you read Relics patchnotes you will often see this: "to bring it in line"
No ask yourself why.


just my 2 cents.