Issues with OKW

Changes for OKW:

• Remove Munitions to Fuel Conversion
  
  This has been bugging me for over a year since WFA came out. OKW isn't as fuel starved as people think it is. Pumas, Panthers, Jagdpanzers, all come out very early for OKW if they convert. Jagdpanzers can come out earlier than a Sherman if a USF player like me builds all officers (like how it should be played).
  
  An indirect issue with this has to do with map control as well. If the Allies have both fuel points, OKW can keep both munitions points and still manage.
  
  If OKW was a 100% FU faction, this would be very overpowered because they'd have tanks coming out earlier than everyone. However the issue isn't as blatant and is hiding because OKW is at 66% FU. So tanks don't come out earlier than other factions, but they do come out at the same time. For a faction that was designed on superior tanks than every other faction, this is a staggering issue. OKW should have tanks coming out after every other faction does, not at the same time. Cheap OKW HQs exasperates this issue; I will elaborate on this.
  
  Another issue is in addition to OKW tanks coming out at proper timings, they aren't penalized enough for losing tanks. They have access to beasts like Jagdtigers, King Tigers, Panthers, Sturmtigers, Jagdpanzers, but losing them doesn't matter much because replacing them isn't too difficult. OKW shouldn't have the Soviet and Allies mentality of throwing away tanks and still managing to win.
  
  All you need is the good old munitions to fuel conversion and everything is fine and dandy for the OKW. All they need are Panzershreks anyways.
  
  
• Increase HQ Costs by 50% (300 MP + 60 FU)
  
  You know how MU --> FU conversion nullifies the whole low fuel concept for OKW? It is exasperated by the fact that their HQs are so cheap. Just 200 MP and 40 FU for Mech and Medic HQs and 80 FU for the Flak HQ. Compared to Ostheer, USF, UKF, and USSR, its too cheap.
  
  This also creates issues with risk vs. reward. OKW can manage to be risky with their HQs because there isn't much fuel at stake. Yes, one can argue there is more at stake than just the 200 MP and 40 FU, so this is more of a smaller issue but still an issue that needs to be fixed.
  
  Some people say that their HQs should be cheaper because they are starved faction. This isn't a reasonable justification for cheap HQs. What is the point of fuel starving a faction because they have access to stronger units if you are going to make their techs cheaper?
  
  This essentially gets tanks out really quickly. Do the math, USSR for example requires more fuel to get its T34 out than a Jagdpanzer.
  
  That being said, I want this to be an intellectual discussion please without the "fanboy" "OP" cards with little to no reasoning behind statements. This isn't a flame thread, this is after analyzing the game after 2,000 hours of gameplay. I provided my reasons, so you guys give reasons to why you agree or disagree. And specifics please.
  
  

  EDIT

  
  
  Wow the amount of backlash is mind boggling. I sincerely apologize lmao. I mean I knew I had it coming, that's why I put that bold text at the end. Didn't help tho apparently. I should've known OKW is a sensitive subject.
  
  But anyways, you guys are drifting away from what I'm trying to get across. I said remove fuel/munitions conversions and increase HQ techs and then I provided reasons for them. The reasons may or may not be the best of reasons, but it still doesn't change the fact that there is something wrong with OKWs ability to convert.
  
  It's like Close Air Support. The whole concept of converting resources to other resources in my opinion is just completely wrong and adds in many issues into the game. I even dislike the concept of Opel Blitz and Caches. Feautures like these things slightly weaken the concept of map control. If you don't have the fuel points but you have munitions, why on earth should you be able to convert the munitions to fuel to make up for the lack of territories. These things play with the very basics and core of the game.
  
  Hmm... let us not forget that TAMPERING WITH RESOURCES RUINS THE GAME.
  a) Close Air Support/Ostruppen Doctrine Fuel to Munitions Conversion --> Call-in spam + mines/shrek spam
  b) Lend Lease --> M4C Sherman spam
  c) Luftwaffe Supply --> Exploit fuel secured maps like Ettelbruck, Lienne Forest, old Semoskiy, etc. 13 minute King Tiger see this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDrTEgh-SiM
  d) Opel Blitz/Cache --> Compound munitions/fuel problem in 4v4s
  e) Soviet unreleased No Step Back doctrine --> Ridiculous early game from manpower boost
  f) Windustry --> 5 minute T70s, 7 minute T34s
  
  Can I end my statement with a STOP TAMPERING WITH THE RESOURCES DAMMIT!!! IT IS NEVER A GOOD IDEA Honestly when has it ever?

For starters, OKW muni income is 80% and OKW flak HQ costs 80 fuel...

OKW muni income was once changed to 100% income, and that caused problems. September 24th patch reverted it to 80% and i believe it hasnt changed since then.

If price for trucks is increased by 50%, then durability must be increased as well...

You lost me at saying okw doesn't hurt from throwing away vehicles as much. I'm sorry but what? Are you serious?

Second if risky truck play is so OP why not just try placing all ur trucks at just under the halfway point of map if its so good? What is this 4v4?

There are only three changes I would like to see with OKW.

1. Kuble not getting road speed. I hate it so much on some maps when this dam things is at a cut off before your first unit. Even a rushed RE from USF will not beat a kuble to the point.

2. The Medic HQ can't research forward retreat point until another truck is placed and finished building. This is more for team games, which is all I play and this ability on a hard to kill building no less coming out in the first 5 min of the game, runes a lot of map. It lets the OKW player get away with retrating and being back in like 3 mins full health and ready to go again. While everyone else has to go back to base. USF doesn't get there shitter forward retreat point till major tier, so OKW should have to wait to.

3. Last and not least (this is more of a mechanic thing then OKW thing, just they have more units with it) no dam clocking alien bull shit tech on any unit. I mean any JP, Falls, Zis-gun, Stormtroops, JL. Even sniper i don't think should be able to clock with out moving to new cover. JP if nothing else should lose it after the first attack or be rooted for some time to use this ability.

oh i guess allied fanobys saw okw weak thread so they started counter-okw threads.

Even with Fuel Conversion, they don't reach normal resource income.

17Fu / 31Mu - OKW Standard
20Fu / 15Mu - OKW Fuel
08Fu / 49Mu - OKW Munitions

23Fu / 37Mu - Standard
26Fu / 42Mu - 1 Fuel/Munitions Cache
29Fu / 47Mu - 2 Fuel/Munitions Caches

There are only three changes I would like to see with OKW.

1. Kuble not getting road speed. I hate it so much on some maps when this dam things is at a cut off before your first unit. Even a rushed RE from USF will not beat a kuble to the point.

2. The Medic HQ can't research forward retreat point until another truck is placed and finished building. This is more for team games, which is all I play and this ability on a hard to kill building no less coming out in the first 5 min of the game, runes a lot of map. It lets the OKW player get away with retrating and being back in like 3 mins full health and ready to go again. While everyone else has to go back to base. USF doesn't get there shitter forward retreat point till major tier, so OKW should have to wait to.

3. Last and not least (this is more of a mechanic thing then OKW thing, just they have more units with it) no dam clocking alien bull shit tech on any unit. I mean any JP, Falls, Zis-gun, Stormtroops, JL. Even sniper i don't think should be able to clock with out moving to new cover. JP if nothing else should lose it after the first attack or be rooted for some time to use this ability.

Now thats fair.

I think there is nothing wrong with fuel conversion. Cheap tech however- that's completely different story.

40/.66 = 60

80/.66 = 124

If you adjust the tech for their fuel disability it make sense in the context of the other factions. They get 1st tier for free like Soviets and Ostheer, and their second tier either costs 60 fuel or 124 (close to 130) like USF.

Also yeah OKW can't afford to lose tanks and still stay in the game and conversion hurts you more than it helps you 80% of the time.

This doesn't apply when you're fuel converting though.

Are we saying in that thread that fuel conversion is a good thing to do ?

This doesn't apply when you're fuel converting though.

While i do use conversion ,using it that early in the game is a rather classic blunder because without ammo upgrades neither volks or obers are not able to do anything.

They have access to beasts like Jagdtigers, King Tigers, Panthers, Sturmtigers, Jagdpanzers,

These units arent actually that good and i rather have a regular tiger over the king tiger and stugs and ostwinds over anything the okw can produce at base.

All they need are Panzershreks anyways.

Stopped reading right there lol

North, are you playing other game? TBH i think soviets op this patch and OKW... well it good to have 1 OKW for better artillery, at(yes, i think camo rakketens>paks in 4v4), repairs, cheaper mines and cp. Just watch LoH, nobody plays more than one OKW in 4v4.

Pumas, Panthers, Jagdpanzers, all come out very early for OKW if they convert. Jagdpanzers can come out earlier than a Sherman if a USF player like me builds all officers (like how it should be played).

It is idea of OKW, they can get first tanks really fast, but their second tanks comes lot later. Yes, they will have jp4 before your sherman if they decide to rush it, but by the time they can allow themselves 2nd jp4 (or other vehicle which makes more sense), you can have 3 additional shermans.

they aren't penalized enough for losing tanks.

Their tanks have insane scaling, losing vet 5 jp4 is equal to losing 3-4 jacksons. Even more - losing vet 0 jp4 is equal to losing all infantry, because from there on they would not be able to protect infantry from HE Shermans.

Jagdtigers

Useless, give me that elefant with command p4 on top of it.

King Tigers

Close to useless, su76 spam rapes it.

Yeah currently OKW meta revolves around using JPIV's and PIV's, not Super Heavies. There really isn't any incentive to get something bigger than a Panther because of the massive gap you will have in armor. JT is only really needed if you get stuck with double OKW in a random.

Changes for OKW:
They have access to beasts like Jagdtigers, King Tigers, Panthers, Sturmtigers, Jagdpanzers, but losing them doesn't matter much because replacing them isn't too difficult. OKW shouldn't have the Soviet and Allies mentality of throwing away tanks and still managing to win.

What's going on here.. and you mention 2000 hours of gameplay.

WTF... Do you even play OKW?

The problem with OKW is they have two useless units in T1 and T2, and their early game is predicated on the Kubel, which isn't fun to micro or play against.

WTF... Do you even play OKW?

WTF...Do you even play Allies?

Haha