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Su-76 no longer needs free barrage?

11 Aug 2015, 12:41 PM
#41
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8


So why does the SU-76 have great AT but also come with a free AI barrage? There should be a trade-off.

Because the quality of that AI barrage is not great and AT isn't comparable to that of SU-85, its weaker as it requires more shots to take down same target and can't self spot. Survivability is also lower.
Comparison to StuG also isn't valid as StuG is incomparably better with AT thanks to TWP and its own armor/durability/allied tanks pen/armor.
There is your trade-off.
11 Aug 2015, 12:55 PM
#42
avatar of Switzerland
Donator 33

Posts: 545

A weakened Zis barrage for free needs to change, yet a perfect line Stuka zu fus shot that goes over obstacles due to non existent gyroscopic magic for free is fine? I dunno, the SU76 barrage can't really threaten more than one squad at a time and against OKW sit there for one shell to many and the volks will kil it. Don't see why it can't keep what is clearly it's trick, coco drying even being free before didn't justify building it, says a lot about the barrage.

If this barrage needs a cost, quite simply how is it we justify the Stika Zu Fus landing so perfectly at zero Vet for free? Aware of them being different units but the 76 barrage is a feather tickler. OP is mobile just not showing the vote anymore or did it go badly and you removed it?
11 Aug 2015, 12:59 PM
#43
avatar of Lucas Troy

Posts: 508

I suspect part of the reason that barrage feels too good now is that we're all so used to the SU-76 being practically an auto-lose option for the player building it. Personally, I have lost tanks, units, and perhaps also entire games by forgetting that SU-76s are no longer a noob trap unit. In past game versions, I would see 3 SU-76s approaching and then just laugh manically and effortlessly kill them all with one P4.

Now that they can take on Tigers and Panthers, it's weird, but I think it helps to remember that an SU-76 horde is a major investment. Four of them cost 300 fuel - that's even more than a Tiger or an Elefant, while also being profoundly more difficult to micro than one super heavy unit.

Everyone expects a Tiger to be difficult to deal with, so why can't we have the same expectations for an SU-76 horde?

11 Aug 2015, 13:44 PM
#44
avatar of QueenRatchet123

Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2

Permanently Banned
Dont nerf it. You have plenty of options to deal with an su-76.
11 Aug 2015, 14:48 PM
#45
avatar of broodwarjc

Posts: 824

A weakened Zis barrage for free needs to change, yet a perfect line Stuka zu fus shot that goes over obstacles due to non existent gyroscopic magic for free is fine? I dunno, the SU76 barrage can't really threaten more than one squad at a time and against OKW sit there for one shell to many and the volks will kil it. Don't see why it can't keep what is clearly it's trick, coco drying even being free before didn't justify building it, says a lot about the barrage.

If this barrage needs a cost, quite simply how is it we justify the Stika Zu Fus landing so perfectly at zero Vet for free? Aware of them being different units but the 76 barrage is a feather tickler. OP is mobile just not showing the vote anymore or did it go badly and you removed it?


The Stuka costs more fuel than the SU76 for a fuel starved faction, is a easy to kill Halftrack, requires a 2 minute cooldown, and doesn't have a big AT gun on the front. The comparisons are pretty bad.
11 Aug 2015, 15:04 PM
#46
avatar of Switzerland
Donator 33

Posts: 545

dunno, COH 1 the half track upgrade didn't let the rockets fall in a perfect line, yet precision strike was cheese right? Sorry but the 76 barrage does not need a cost for what it does. It's a good unit, not an OP unit, and that's overdue.
Vez
11 Aug 2015, 15:30 PM
#47
avatar of Vez

Posts: 141

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Aug 2015, 07:12 AMKatitof


Jagdtiger.

Also, SU-76 is not and never was a pure TD, ever.

Its a FIELD GUN on trucks, its purpose and use was BOTH light artillery and AT support, hence the reflection of it in game.

You all are bitching about a unit that was extinct forever, suddenly came back and you have no clue on how to fight it.

Adapt, learn to play, PaKs are not rooted in place.
The Jagtiger barrage isn't free... I don't mind the SU-76 being a good TD but it doesn,t need the barrage to be a good tank.
11 Aug 2015, 15:40 PM
#48
avatar of WingZero

Posts: 1484

The barrage misses quite often when I use it. Common guys, I don't see how Axis is struggling against Su-76 now.
Vez
11 Aug 2015, 16:24 PM
#49
avatar of Vez

Posts: 141

Maybe put a muni cost on the barrage but reduce a little bit it's cooldwon.
11 Aug 2015, 17:30 PM
#50
avatar of BrutusHR

Posts: 262

jump backJump back to quoted post11 Aug 2015, 07:12 AMKatitof


Jagdtiger.


Adapt, learn to play, PaKs are not rooted in place.


Maybe i missed something, i didn't build jagdtiger in ages, but i think that JT's cant barrage but just shoots one* HE shell and usualy that shell cant hit sh*t and it cost 40-60 muni?
Can someone confirm this?
11 Aug 2015, 17:33 PM
#51
avatar of BeefSurge

Posts: 1891

It's not free.
11 Aug 2015, 19:11 PM
#52
avatar of Bulgakov

Posts: 987

I don't understand why the people saying "it's a poor ability" are the same people saying "don't take it away". If it was that bad, why would you care?


Clearly you find it useful. I think usefulness should:
A) Have a cost
B) Not come in bundles of various types (AI, AT), especially in relatively cheap units.


In a game that could be called "Clumping of Heroes", splash damage weapons are very potent. The barrage is good.
11 Aug 2015, 19:39 PM
#53
avatar of Lucas Troy

Posts: 508

I don't understand why the people saying "it's a poor ability" are the same people saying "don't take it away". If it was that bad, why would you care?



It's more like, "please don't make a small and unnecessary nerf to a unit that is not actually over performing."

11 Aug 2015, 20:01 PM
#54
avatar of elchino7
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 8154 | Subs: 2

I don't understand why the people saying "it's a poor ability" are the same people saying "don't take it away". If it was that bad, why would you care?


Clearly you find it useful. I think usefulness should:
A) Have a cost
B) Not come in bundles of various types (AI, AT), especially in relatively cheap units.


In a game that could be called "Clumping of Heroes", splash damage weapons are very potent. The barrage is good.


"It's more like, "please don't make a small and unnecessary nerf to a unit that is not actually over performing."
Although i would reduce pen a bit (enough to deal with medium, a bit less effective against heavies). You could also increase a bit more the cooldown and i don't think anyone would complain.

Reducing range on the main gun or giving it a muni cost are not options i would contemplate.


If you think the barrage needs a muni cost, then i think that free "maphack" vet1 Kubels has been needing a rework since launch. Why is it that OH has to pay munitions and OKW get it for free ?

11 Aug 2015, 20:03 PM
#55
avatar of Vuther
Senior Moderator Badge

Posts: 3103 | Subs: 1

If you think the barrage needs a muni cost, then i think that free "maphack" vet1 Kubels has been needing a rework since launch. Why is it that OH has to pay munitions and OKW get it for free ?

I have no idea why people don't think that's the best vet ability ever.
11 Aug 2015, 20:04 PM
#56
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

A vehicle with great AI like the Ostwind has no AT capability.
A TD like SU-85 has great AT but no AI capability.
A generalist like a PIV has medium AI and medium AT capability.

So why does the SU-76 have great AT but also come with a free AI barrage? There should be a trade-off.


Why does an AT Tank like the Panther have AI MG 42's? Why does a TD like the M10 have Infantry Crush? Why does a reconnaissance light tank like the Valentine have a 75mm gun?




I suspect part of the reason that barrage feels too good now is that we're all so used to the SU-76 being practically an auto-lose option for the player building it. Personally, I have lost tanks, units, and perhaps also entire games by forgetting that SU-76s are no longer a noob trap unit. In past game versions, I would see 3 SU-76s approaching and then just laugh manically and effortlessly kill them all with one P4.

Now that they can take on Tigers and Panthers, it's weird, but I think it helps to remember that an SU-76 horde is a major investment. Four of them cost 300 fuel - that's even more than a Tiger or an Elefant, while also being profoundly more difficult to micro than one super heavy unit.

Everyone expects a Tiger to be difficult to deal with, so why can't we have the same expectations for an SU-76 horde?


+1
11 Aug 2015, 20:05 PM
#57
avatar of broodwarjc

Posts: 824

dunno, COH 1 the half track upgrade didn't let the rockets fall in a perfect line, yet precision strike was cheese right? Sorry but the 76 barrage does not need a cost for what it does. It's a good unit, not an OP unit, and that's overdue.


I forgot to say that I think the SU76's barrage is fine and doesn't need a cost.

Precision Strike was a problem because it came on spam-able units and made the defensive nature of Axis armies null and void. The comparison of a single unit's ability to an ENTIRE unit's function is just bad. In addition this game plays differently than COH1 so comparing it to that is again, a bad comparison.
11 Aug 2015, 20:08 PM
#58
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

Why do people keep using the underperformance of the SU-76 in ages past as a justification for it's current performance?

Just reduce it's range to 55 and bump the StuG III's range up to 55. Swap TWP for Aimed Shot.
11 Aug 2015, 20:49 PM
#59
avatar of Lucas Troy

Posts: 508

Why do people keep using the underperformance of the SU-76 in ages past as a justification for it's current performance?


Literally no one is saying that. If you're referring to one of my earlier posts, I'm suggesting that it my misleadingly appear to overperform now because it so severely under performed previously, though in fact it is perfectly fine now. Not "it was bad before, so it must be über OP now."
11 Aug 2015, 21:00 PM
#60
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1



Literally no one is saying that. If you're referring to one of my earlier posts, I'm suggesting that it my misleadingly appear to overperform now because it so severely under performed previously, though in fact it is perfectly fine now. Not "it was bad before, so it must be über OP now."


Relic has a very, very huge history of over buffing units. See: The M5 Quadmount.
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