SU-76 issues

Holy shit, dedicated tank destroyers can do penetrate tanks... Need to re work them into tank fail to destroyers

I'm starting to get annoyed with these kinds of arguments. Yeah, its a TD. And? I'd want to see an SU-76 fight something like a Maus and a T-54 and penn every time because its a TD so it'll magically penn everytime.

ATM, its essentially a TD/Assualt that has decent AI due to barrage that comes rather early in the game as well. Gameplaywise - its bad if it can last into lategame if heavy tanks are sent in. If SU-76s were to flank heavy tanks/Panthers and kill them that way, I'd be okay with that. But penning frontally is a big problem. For instance, the KT in VCoH couldn't be killed reliably by a pack M10s or M18s from the front. But if they flanked the KT, then it would be killable. I think these kind of mechanics are good for the game.

If you want a video example this is one

If you want history


And okay, if you want to talk about history, well okay, German Guns were far more accurate and harder hitting than the SU-76 in real life. At normal combat ranges, Panthers and Tigers can easily kill SU-76s at a further range than the SU-76 can even kill Panthers and Tigers. Yes, the game isn't balanced around history but at the same time there's what's reasonable and what's not. You don't see Luchs killing IS's from the front.

Plus, when it comes to shells, there's a tradeoff between AI and AT. The higher velocity the gun, the better the AT performance, but that means that you can't pack enough HE into the shells so the AI performance is reduced.

Oh and for the record, I don't think heavy tanks being stunned anymore is a good idea, esp when you're limited to one heavy tank in a game. Stunning heavy tanks was a mechanic more designed for when you could field multiple heavy tanks than one. Relic are making big changes to the gameplay without adjusting what the role of the unit was designed for in the first place.

If the pennetration was nerfed for the SU-76, I wouldn't not mind if to counter that nerf, a camo ability was placed on the SU-76. That, after all, was one of the advantages of the SU-76 in the war anyway.

I'm not sure if the unit is performing well (which is amazing to be thinking of it after 2 years), SLIGHTLY overperforming in SOME area or that people have overestimate the unit for so long that they are surprise to see them in numbers.

The Su76 is good defensively and slowly creeping forward (with barrage) BUT SUCKS at chasing (having to turn the whole tank to shoot) or finishing targets.

I'm not sure if the unit is performing well (which is amazing to be thinking of it after 2 years), SLIGHTLY overperforming in SOME area or that people have overestimate the unit for so long that they are surprise to see them in numbers.

The Su76 is good defensively and slowly creeping forward (with barrage) BUT SUCKS at chasing (having to turn the whole tank to shoot) or finishing targets.

For a lot of people it's not that the SU-76 is "2OP relic pls nerf ;_; " it's that the SU-76 has replaced the SU-85 and made going T4 outside of wanting to get kats or you went an 85 doctrine a risky sell.

It's just to efficient for it's cost. Yeah in 1v1's you can't spam it (although you can get a decent number of them) but holy fuck in 2v2 lately it's just been never ending 76's into ISU or IS2 or god help me howitzers.

You can make it less spammable or make other options more attractive without making it useless. I mean the StuG III ain't got 60 range totally lost it's AI performance and people think it's the bees knees.

Yeah, I don't mind if the SU-76 does well, but the penetration in my eyes is ridiculously high.

For its cost, its a bit ><. I'm not saying that the cost should be increased, I'm not looking for removing barrage because its a unique feature of the SU-76 that stops tank gameplay in CoH2 being too homogenous. It really shouldn't penn Panthers, Tigers and heavy tanks frontally though.

If it was an assault gun,didn't the StuG(long barrel) had the ability to barage targets ?if yes,would that be OP in thy game ?

If it was an assault gun,didn't the StuG(long barrel) had the ability to barage targets ?if yes,would that be OP in thy game ?

IT CAN'T BARRAGE

Su-76 is fine as it it.

It's normal that the game is now a bit harder for Axis because now it's a more balanced. (3vs3+)

Note : It's strange to see stealth Raken moving in the clear but a sniper (1 man) as to hide in cover not to be seen....

Wall of stealth Rak moving into the open... how even more strange... It's a defensive weapon that should move to stay stealth...) bug?.. lol

Thanks

It's balanced early and mid game, its OP in late game IMO. The penetration is too strong.

And in most cases, the game is balanced around 1vs1 and 2 vs 2, not 3vs3 and 4vs4+.

"Game is harder for axis" - well that's what balance is for - fine tuning units of the game so that they're working as intended. I don't care if axis or allies are harder, but I'm looking for what's reasonable and what isn't

It's balanced early and mid game, its OP in late game IMO. The penetration is too strong.

And in most cases, the game is balanced around 1vs1 and 2 vs 2, not 3vs3 and 4vs4+.

"Game is harder for axis" - well that's what balance is for - fine tuning units of the game so that they're working as intended. I don't care if axis or allies are harder, but I'm looking for what's reasonable and what isn't

Well I think the issue lay mostly in that it's hard to cost effectively counter the SU-76 because it represents such a small investment while not being particularly hard to keep alive. Sure you might wipe out a few here or there but when your suffering more bleed than he is then there's a problem.

Bringing the range down to 50 would solve a lot of problems. Alternatively bring the range of the StuG III up to 60 so StuG's can slug it out with them easier.

Let's compare it with other "similar" units:

MP/Fuel
Speed/Size/Armor/ReArmor/HP
Penetration/Damage/Range/RoF

Puma:
80.0 270.0 or 70.0 320.0 (OH/OKW)
7.2 18.0 25.0 12.5 400.0
160.0/120.0/80.0 120 50 4.1
Note: LMG42 damage, aimed shot (can also be used on infantry snipers) and smoke.

M10:
80.0 270.0
7.0 22.0 120.0 57.5 560.0
180.0/160.0/140.0 160 50 5.85
Note: Amazing crush, AP shells and blitz

Stug-G
90.0 280.0
6.0 20.0 140.0 70.0 560.0
200.0/185.0/170.0 160 50 5.3
Note: some AI with MGs, Amazing/OP TWP

Su-76
75.0 280
6.3 20.0 70.0 35.0 400.0
200.0/190.0/180.0 120 60 3.4
Note: Barrage and fix turret

---------------------------------------------

All in all:
-Puma could be slightly cheaper (5f for OH - 20mp for OKW)
-M10 could be slightly more expensive (10-20mp)
-Stug is fine but i'll rather see TWP for it working more like Aimed shot.
-Su76 could increase cooldown on Barrage. Could up by 5fuel.
-I don't think that either increasing the range for the Stug or decreasing it for the Su76 is the solution. Buffing the range on the Stug will bring a huge disparity with the Su85 (for cost) and bringing it down on the Su76 will make it too vulnerable IMO (gun traverse sucks).

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For a lot of people it's not that the SU-76 is "2OP relic pls nerf ;_; " it's that the SU-76 has replaced the SU-85 and made going T4 outside of wanting to get kats or you went an 85 doctrine a risky sell.

It's just to efficient for it's cost. Yeah in 1v1's you can't spam it (although you can get a decent number of them) but holy fuck in 2v2 lately it's just been never ending 76's into ISU or IS2 or god help me howitzers.

You can make it less spammable or make other options more attractive without making it useless. I mean the StuG III ain't got 60 range totally lost it's AI performance and people think it's the bees knees.

1-Su85 can spot for itself, turret has some rotation, 160 damage and 240more hp. Vet2 or vet3 is way better than the Su76.
Going for either is a matter of wether you could tech T4 or not. I still think that Su85 needs a better vet1 ability and that could mean all the difference between both units.

2-No one was building Stugs before for it's AI, they died easily and weren't reliable against armor.

puma flank

Let's compare it with other "similar" units:
Show Spoiler

good post.

i think su76 can shoot slower. think that would be enough for su76.

Show Spoiler

i don't think you get how crappy the armour/pen system in this game is. it favors guns over armour because the floor for pen is either 1 (literately 1 pen) or like 0.1% chance to pen. what this means is that anything with pen >1 CAN penetrate a tank, whether that's likely or not. this means that you can get RNG runs where things over/under preform even though they're balanced overall.

tl;dr: the current pen/armour system means that roughly equal things can hit far above their weight if they get a good RNG streak.

also, this game is not a sim nor a WWII game; it just looks like it because it uses the appearances, names, and sounds from WWII. it's like a pontiac fiero with lambo side panels and muffler.

I think elchino7 pretty much summed up cost to effectiveness comparison with other light TDs.

SU-76 is fine, its not a joke anymore, start treating it as a proper TD or keep losing tanks.

What's wrong with Su-76? It just became efficient, chill boys, and it is in a right spot. It could be MAYBE to cheap for what it does, but I wouldn't like to see any other change related to it.
I beat the shit out of axis using it and I can kill it easily while playing axis. Why can't everybody do like me and be happy without so manny nerf threads?
Let's just admit that the current meta is so good.

The Puma for Ostheer is 75 fuel not 80. And it's stats are actually different to the OKW one. The Ostheer puma has insanely higher turret rotation speed (something stupid like 300%) and it uses the old TWP instead of the new one or aimed shot.

1-Su85 can spot for itself, turret has some rotation, 160 damage and 240more hp. Vet2 or vet3 is way better than the Su76.
Going for either is a matter of wether you could tech T4 or not. I still think that Su85 needs a better vet1 ability and that could mean all the difference between both units.

2-No one was building Stugs before for it's AI, they died easily and weren't reliable against armor

Except the SU-85 is still much more expensive. Yeah going T4 makes sense in larger game modes like 3v3 and 4v4 but in 1v1 and 2v2 lately Iv noticed that T3 tends to have everything you need for a large part of the game because the M5 gives you all your AI and the SU-76 can punch way above it's weight.

Reducing the SU-76's range to 50 would make it so it has a bigger disadvantage over the SU-85 while still keeping it spammable and able to get shit done when it comes onto the field.

Yes nobody made StuG's for AI but I find it inconsistent the StuG III had it's AI potential removed while the SU-76 got to keep it.

What's wrong with Su-76? It just became efficient, chill boys, and it is in a right spot. It could be MAYBE to cheap for what it does, but I wouldn't like to see any other change related to it.
I beat the shit out of axis using it and I can kill it easily while playing axis. Why can't everybody do like me and be happy without so manny nerf threads?
Let's just admit that the current meta is so good.

The problem here isn't the Early-game or the midgame role of the SU-76.

The problem is the endgame role of the SU-76 where it can Penn panthers, tigers and elefants reasonably reliably from the front when it historically wasn't able to even come close. For a unit that comes into the game after 5-10 minutes that is mobile and is strong early and mid game as it should be, that is a big problem.

i don't think you get how crappy the armour/pen system in this game is. it favors guns over armour because the floor for pen is either 1 (literately 1 pen) or like 0.1% chance to pen. what this means is that anything with pen >1 CAN penetrate a tank, whether that's likely or not. this means that you can get RNG runs where things over/under preform even though they're balanced overall.

tl;dr: the current pen/armour system means that roughly equal things can hit far above their weight if they get a good RNG streak.

also, this game is not a sim nor a WWII game; it just looks like it because it uses the appearances, names, and sounds from WWII. it's like a pontiac fiero with lambo side panels and muffler.

Pretty adequate description imo. I mean there's such thing as artistic licence but there's a difference between artistic licence and taking things too far away from the history.

That and a lot of P2W elements earlier and gameplay flaws are essentially why a lot of CoH1 vets such as Inverse, Tommy, Pepsi etc left CoH2 despite being so enthusiastic for it.

When WoT is far more realistic than a "ww2 strategy experience" you know you've got a big problem....

i don't think you get how crappy the armour/pen system in this game is. it favors guns over armour because the floor for pen is either 1 (literately 1 pen) or like 0.1% chance to pen. what this means is that anything with pen >1 CAN penetrate a tank, whether that's likely or not. this means that you can get RNG runs where things over/under preform even though they're balanced overall.

"Penetration chances below 3% are ignored by the game." Cruzz

The Puma for Ostheer is 75 fuel not 80. And it's stats are actually different to the OKW one. The Ostheer puma has insanely higher turret rotation speed (something stupid like 300%) and it uses the old TWP instead of the new one or aimed shot.

Except the SU-85 is still much more expensive. Yeah going T4 makes sense in larger game modes like 3v3 and 4v4 but in 1v1 and 2v2 lately Iv noticed that T3 tends to have everything you need for a large part of the game because the M5 gives you all your AI and the SU-76 can punch way above it's weight.

Reducing the SU-76's range to 50 would make it so it has a bigger disadvantage over the SU-85 while still keeping it spammable and able to get shit done when it comes onto the field.

Yes nobody made StuG's for AI but I find it inconsistent the StuG III had it's AI potential removed while the SU-76 got to keep it.

1-I just checked the "unit" value, didn't remember the call in cost. Although i'm not sure you are right (http://commanders.coh.fi/index or http://www.coh2.org/guides/33520/mobile-defence-guide) cause i don't remember changes to the price.
Yep, i forgot that it used TWP vs Aimed shot.

Regarding turret rotation, i'm not sure. Maybe turret rotation is determined by another value but the files says:

"speed_horizontal: 35f" for both. So if i'm missing something else or i'm looking at the wrong stat tell me.

2-Again, you use Su76 against light vehicles and low number of meds. Transitioning to Su85 is a matter of wether you tech T4 or not. It's a decision on wether you want glass cannon or a "robust" TD. Damage difference is a huge factor. Wether you need 4 or 6 shots to kill a tank is a huge matter.

On 1v1, theres litle point on going T4, when you can play with T3 light vehicle into IS2/ISU152. You can also go KV1/M4 if you want meds.
On 2v2, while you can try and go for the 15min win with double ligh vehicle play, making someone tech for 85s (Su or T34) and Katyusha is still solid.

3-Nobody removed the possibility of the Stug to upgrade the gunner.

Elchino, I liked your posts. One thing I don't agree with tho is Stug AI performance. The Stug mounted MG provides at best a bit of self defense. You don't use that mg to assault infantry or attack. The SU-76 however can blow holes in defences, decrew and squad wipe in a way that the Stug can't. Nothing wrong with that feature but just want to show that both AI imo are incomparable.

Personally what I think of the state of the SU-76 is that it has been left in a state where it had to compete against the SU-85. As such, the SU-85 was built far more in the past and buffs to SU-76 did not entice ppl to build the Su-76.

Now, it doesn't need to compete with the SU-85 anymore yet its viable even in the endgame so no one ever techs to T4 as relic intended. Changing the range could work but for a gun that was ineffective irl against panthers, tigers and so on I feel the Penn of the SU-76 reduced would be more accurate.

If Penn was reduced and teaching costs decrdecreased for Sovs or camo was added to SU-76, it would make the game a lot better than lel my unit I built in the 5th-10th minute can smash heavy breakthrough units in ways the SU-76 couldn't even deal with IRL