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russian armor

A Molotov problem or...?

3 Jul 2015, 21:08 PM
#41
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1



Mines, Oorah to do the flanks the faction needs to do as Axis sits behind OP42s and LMGs, Mollies, Trip flares, flame throwers, DPs, .50 Kraut mower.

You need to get these things to keep your infantry in the game.

Also demo charges. There is never an excuse to float muni.


Think about this in comparison to the other factions. You HAVE to use smoke as USF, you need to upgrade all your basic infantry with weapons as USF, ect.

For OKW it's pretty self explanatory, you have high costing munition upgrades and reduced income.

Ostheer is probably the most MP intensive faction, you need Muni for medics, upgrade all your basic inf, expensive mines, ect.

Soviet's just don't have as much upgrades, most of the stuff you high lighted are abilities like the demo, molotovs, oorah, and mines.
3 Jul 2015, 21:15 PM
#42
avatar of Cabreza

Posts: 656



I think Molotovs and Grenades is to much. I like the idea with the Vet 1 Molos but instead of granades tech i would say ppsh tech (but with higher cost). Leave the flares to combat engineers.


Keep in mind that Obers and Falshim can already throw bundle grenades and blendkorp smoke grenades with enough vet. Furthermore any OKW commander with ambush grenades allows Volks to throw two kinds of grenades by default. I don't believe conscripts being able to throw a normal grenade and molotovs would be particularly problematic for balance. Molotovs just don't kill infantry anymore so they are only really useful for forcing units out of buildings or away from cover. The actual combat damage molotovs do is pitiful.
3 Jul 2015, 21:23 PM
#43
avatar of Aerohank

Posts: 2693 | Subs: 1



Think about this in comparison to the other factions. You HAVE to use smoke as USF, you need to upgrade all your basic infantry with weapons as USF, ect.

For OKW it's pretty self explanatory, you have high costing munition upgrades and reduced income.

Ostheer is probably the most MP intensive faction, you need Muni for medics, upgrade all your basic inf, expensive mines, ect.

Soviet's just don't have as much upgrades, most of the stuff you high lighted are abilities like the demo, molotovs, oorah, and mines.


I'd say that not having a lot of upgrades doesn't mean a faction is not munitions heavy. All those munitions upgrades of the other factions make them better at bleeding the enemies manpower. To compensate, the soviet player needs to drain enemy MP with his munitions, which means using plenty of hoorah and mines. Spending munitions with the other factions (and thus optimizing the use of one of your resources) is just easier when you can spend it on LMGs, but they are not more munitions heavy in principle.
3 Jul 2015, 21:31 PM
#44
avatar of Cruzz

Posts: 1221 | Subs: 41


Wasn't flamecrit chance applied just for flamers?


All flame weapons worked off the same 5% / 10% chance defined in infantry unit model stats. So every single ability that had flame damage got nerfed in the patch. None of the offmaps or grenades got their aoes improved like the "proper" flamethrower weapons so it was just a straight up nerf, larger nerf for them.
3 Jul 2015, 21:33 PM
#45
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jul 2015, 21:31 PMCruzz


All flame weapons worked off the same 5% / 10% chance defined in infantry unit model stats. So every single ability that had flame damage got nerfed in the patch. None of the offmaps or grenades got their aoes improved like the "proper" flamethrower weapons so it was just a straight up nerf, larger nerf for them.


Yeah I noticed that the flame barrage on the Ost Mortar HT and Soviet call in didn't do very much this past patch when I used them.
3 Jul 2015, 21:36 PM
#46
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post3 Jul 2015, 21:31 PMCruzz


All flame weapons worked off the same 5% / 10% chance defined in infantry unit model stats. So every single ability that had flame damage got nerfed in the patch. None of the offmaps or grenades got their aoes improved like the "proper" flamethrower weapons so it was just a straight up nerf, larger nerf for them.


Awesome, more direct nerfs to molos, KV-8, penals and incendiary barrage was exactly what we needed.

/sarcasm
3 Jul 2015, 21:38 PM
#47
avatar of ElSlayer

Posts: 1605 | Subs: 1

Flame crit instagibs were bad. Total RNG. They had to go.
Something needs to be done to compensate now.
I think of plain molotov Damage over Time DPS increase (would be good only against MGs)
OR
Fixed small damage (like 20 or 30) and low-to-moderate DoT damage (good against infantry that wasn't microed and caught in explosion too).

It would have good distinction from normal grenades:
- Grenades deal lethal damage in the middle of explosion and low damage on far end of AoE
- Molotov would do same damage in all AoE no matter how close model standing to middle of explosion.
3 Jul 2015, 21:40 PM
#48
avatar of Bob Loblaw

Posts: 156



Soviet's just don't have as much upgrades, most of the stuff you high lighted are abilities like the demo, molotovs, oorah, and mines.


Which are needed since scripts are cabbage after 7 minutes. Also you can't just ignore the other muni items I mentioned. With all of these items considered there are plenty of muni uses for Soviets.
3 Jul 2015, 21:51 PM
#49
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1



Which are needed since scripts are cabbage after 7 minutes. Also you can't just ignore the other muni items I mentioned. With all of these items considered there are plenty of muni uses for Soviets.


I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm just saying they are different in focus to the other factions when it comes to use of muni. And conscripts are very much not cabbage after 7 minutes, they have fairly good utility.


It would have good distinction from normal grenades:
- Grenades deal lethal damage in the middle of explosion and low damage on far end of AoE
- Molotov would do same damage in all AoE no matter how close model standing to middle of explosion.


It would be nice if molotovs also obscured sight considering the fire/smoke element...
3 Jul 2015, 22:23 PM
#50
avatar of Corsin

Posts: 600



Awesome, more direct nerfs to molos, KV-8, penals and incendiary barrage was exactly what we needed.

/sarcasm


The incendiary barrage still actually wipes weapon teams its dropped on if theyre not already moving/packed up as it lands...

Not that you'd know that because you dont play the game....
3 Jul 2015, 22:25 PM
#51
avatar of FeelMemoryAcceptance

Posts: 830 | Subs: 2

Molotov is useless if your opponnent is not a big dumb, or if he is concentrate.
3 Jul 2015, 22:40 PM
#52
avatar of sneakking

Posts: 655

Permanently Banned

/sarcasm


nice use of subtext bro, I really needed to know that you were in fact being sarcastic because I wasnt able to figure that out based on the context of your reply and the quote used in combination with your obvious bias

3 Jul 2015, 22:59 PM
#53
avatar of The_rEd_bEar

Posts: 760

The main issue is that cons are just bad, their vet is awful, damage out put is bad, molotoves are bad an at nades are bad. The unit needs a complete redesign. all you see these day are people spamming guards because they perform better and have less micro requirement than shocks
3 Jul 2015, 23:28 PM
#54
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

The main issue is that cons are just bad, their vet is awful, damage out put is bad, molotoves are bad an at nades are bad. The unit needs a complete redesign. all you see these day are people spamming guards because they perform better and have less micro requirement than shocks


Cons:

Unlocks the 'Trip Wire Flares' ability
+40% accuracy, +25% molotov range
-20% weapon cooldown, -23% received accuracy, -25% AT grenade recharge

Grenadiers:
Unlocks the 'Field First Aid' ability
+40% accuracy, +25% Riflegrenade range
-20% cooldown, -25% recharge time for Panzerfaust, -23% received accuracy

The reason why people say con's are bad is because A: People love to blob and refuse to use good unit positioning B: People don't use sand bags, and C: People don't understand what "bad" is.

What con's need is the Molotov to be better, outside of that they are fine. Could the Con PPsh be better to? Sure, I would enjoy it if it increased mid range DPS more.

The AT grenade on con's isn't bad by any margin either, it "fires" a lot faster than the Pfaust, although it could use a little bit more pen.
3 Jul 2015, 23:39 PM
#55
avatar of BeefSurge

Posts: 1891

Molotov is useless if your opponnent is not a big dumb, or if he is concentrate.
3 Jul 2015, 23:40 PM
#56
avatar of The_rEd_bEar

Posts: 760



Cons:

Unlocks the 'Trip Wire Flares' ability
+40% accuracy, +25% molotov range
-20% weapon cooldown, -23% received accuracy, -25% AT grenade recharge

Grenadiers:
Unlocks the 'Field First Aid' ability
+40% accuracy, +25% Riflegrenade range
-20% cooldown, -25% recharge time for Panzerfaust, -23% received accuracy

The reason why people say con's are bad is because A: People love to blob and refuse to use good unit positioning B: People don't use sand bags, and C: People don't understand what "bad" is.

What con's need is the Molotov to be better, outside of that they are fine. Could the Con PPsh be better to? Sure, I would enjoy it if it increased mid range DPS more.

The AT grenade on con's isn't bad by any margin either, it "fires" a lot faster than the Pfaust, although it could use a little bit more pen.


Oh please like a con blob is actually as threatening as an usf or okw blob, their damage output is laughable as the the game progress. Their stats are worst than grens for the most part so even when they rech vet 3 they are still awful. especially when grens can have g43s,rifle nades, and mg42s. Also green cover is determinantal to cons alot of times they are optimal at short-medium ranges, but more often than not green cover means your in long range shoot outs which cons are bad at because relic. At nades never been tanks regardless so the fact they nerfed them in the recent patch along with the panzerfaust, made them even worst.
3 Jul 2015, 23:47 PM
#57
avatar of BeefSurge

Posts: 1891

Cons are fine, I'm sorry people. If Cons were equal to equal to Grens the Germans would need call-in madness.
3 Jul 2015, 23:51 PM
#58
avatar of The_rEd_bEar

Posts: 760

Cons are fine, I'm sorry people. If Cons were equal to equal to Grens the Germans would need call-in madness.
No, you are missing the point the fact that a unit cost 240mp life grens and then purposely designed to perform worst at the game progress is bad design. late game they just bleed man power and waste pop cap. Hence the gaurd spam you see everygame, this has nothing to do with call-ins and doesn't make sense
3 Jul 2015, 23:58 PM
#59
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

No, you are missing the point the fact that a unit cost 240mp life grens and then purposely designed to perform worst at the game progress is bad design. late game they just bleed man power and waste pop cap. Hence the gaurd spam you see everygame, this has nothing to do with call-ins and doesn't make sense


Grens are easier to wipe and drain MP a lot faster than conscripts do. Conscripts are fine if you make use of their abilities. Their description even highlights this "Can by battlefield success with their lives but good commanders will rely on their versatility".

Merge squad + flame engineers is excellent, you can also use them to help keep expensive units like guards on the field without raping your MP income.

They can make the best sand bags in the game, that alone makes them a fairly useful unit.

Soviets also have access to elite infantry, Ost don't. If Grens didn't preform well Ost would be in deep shit.
4 Jul 2015, 00:02 AM
#60
avatar of ElSlayer

Posts: 1605 | Subs: 1

Molotov is useless if your opponnent is not a big dumb, or if he is concentrate.

Oh, really?
Well, it seems to me that it is useless even if you have dumbest opponent ever.



/discuss
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