i can kill a VI B with a 34/76. doesn't mean the 34/76 is OP it means that the VI user sucks.
the VI doesn't have a specific role; it's a generalist heavy. while generalist mediums can do similar things (namely be ok against tanks and infantry) the tiger's health is a huge advantage that lets it survive in situations VIs would die in.
the stug is a shitty AT gun on treads that snipes infantry models and is not the same as a VI or a V or a VI.
Jackson spam
1 Jun 2015, 08:11 AM
#121
8 
Posts: 2470
1 Jun 2015, 09:23 AM
#122
Posts: 1705
Mighty Katitof logic: One Tiger = No combined arms; two T-34/85s in the same call in = Combined arms. Thus the Tiger shouldn´t defeat the T-34/85s.
You should consider becoming a comedian.
Got it in before i did.
1 Jun 2015, 09:28 AM
#123
Posts: 1705
Step 1. Go Fortified Armor or any of hull down doctrine
Step 2. Hull down Panther on important point
Step 3. laugh, because now you out range his Jacksons
I prefer fortified armor tho because you get smoke so you can disable the bags in a sticky situation with cover along with a CPIV which reduces damage making it essentially impossible for you tanks to die.
(Also they still haven't fixed hull down tanks taking almost zero damage from P47's, so lol).
Step 1.Try and tech to t4 vs usf. Good luck.
1 Jun 2015, 14:15 PM
#124
Posts: 1637
I brought up the cost-effectiveness of the jackson in comparison to the majority of Ostheers tanks in this thread, specifically the tiger (which is the most expensive.) At 125 fuel it hard-counters a 230 fuel tank. In comparison a 125 fuel Pz4 doesn't hard-counter an IS2, nor a Stug or a panther. And so they shouldn't as they're all cheaper. Ofcourse this isn't the case with the jackson. At 125 fuel they easily destroy tigers and Pz4's, and are easily replaceable. It's fine to have this role but its price must be raised to reflect its effectiveness.
Someone here mentioned the jackson costs slightly more than a tiger (because of the tech)? That would be true if the USF didn't have such a huge early game advantage against Ostheer. Map control = more resources.
I will await your reply.
6 shots to kill a Tiger is 32 seconds for the Jackson assuming every shot was a hit and every shot was a penetration.
Time to kill a Jackson with a Pak? 12 seconds. And it WILL pen 100% of the time. Clearly this must mean the Pak is OP because its so cheap.....
1 Jackson is a SOFT counter for a Tiger not a hard counter. And further on your other point map control does not produce any more Manpower then not having map control. Manpower is a huge part of its tech cost and actual cost.
Let it go. You are wrong.
The PTRS's are fine as they are. Whenever i'm up against Guard Infantry, I always have to be careful with my vehicles or the Guards will completely destroy them. Good range, good damage and fairly cheap; if anything, the PTRS should nerfed since it's ridiculously good for the price. Even in the hands of Conscripts, the PTRS's are extremely potent.
1 Jun 2015, 14:28 PM
#125
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Actually, time to kill jackson by PaK40 is ~8-9 seconds as you won't have to reload the first shot obviously.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
1 Jun 2015, 14:54 PM
#126
Posts: 1637
Actually, time to kill jackson by PaK40 is ~8-9 seconds as you won't have to reload the first shot obviously.
Then the same reduction would apply to the Jackson.
The PTRS's are fine as they are. Whenever i'm up against Guard Infantry, I always have to be careful with my vehicles or the Guards will completely destroy them. Good range, good damage and fairly cheap; if anything, the PTRS should nerfed since it's ridiculously good for the price. Even in the hands of Conscripts, the PTRS's are extremely potent.
1 Jun 2015, 15:05 PM
#127
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Then the same reduction would apply to the Jackson.
Sure, but we can include the 66% chance to pen, which will increase the TTK on tiger even more.
Jackson needs 6 penetrating shots, with 66% pen chance it can be rounded to 9 shots total, which is 48 seconds after subtracting first shot.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
1 Jun 2015, 15:23 PM
#128
Posts: 1637
Sure, but we can include the 66% chance to pen, which will increase the TTK on tiger even more.
Jackson needs 6 penetrating shots, with 66% pen chance it can be rounded to 9 shots total, which is 48 seconds after subtracting first shot.
Right which is why I said assuming every shots a Penetration. Either way point still remains. Hard counter Jackson is not.
The PTRS's are fine as they are. Whenever i'm up against Guard Infantry, I always have to be careful with my vehicles or the Guards will completely destroy them. Good range, good damage and fairly cheap; if anything, the PTRS should nerfed since it's ridiculously good for the price. Even in the hands of Conscripts, the PTRS's are extremely potent.
1 Jun 2015, 15:49 PM
#129
Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2
Permanently Banned
Right which is why I said assuming every shots a Penetration. Either way point still remains. Hard counter Jackson is not.
if Jackson isn't a tiger hardcounter? then I don't know what is...
There is no recording in all WW2 history of a piat actually knocking off a vehicle. Yes, it was THAT bad.
1 Jun 2015, 15:49 PM
#130
Posts: 55
I wish all hard counters took 48 seconds to kill units - this game would be a lot more forgiving.
Assume 2 Jacksons are out - that is still 24 seconds which is about 3 times longer then it takes to kill any one of those jacksons with a pak even if the tiger isn't contributing. Or you could just insta-kill one with a strafe like we've been saying.
Assume 2 Jacksons are out - that is still 24 seconds which is about 3 times longer then it takes to kill any one of those jacksons with a pak even if the tiger isn't contributing. Or you could just insta-kill one with a strafe like we've been saying.
1 Jun 2015, 15:54 PM
#131
Posts: 760
The fact this thread is even debating the fact if the jackson is op/ tiger is up means its clearly a player issue and most of the people here cant even play the game properly
1 Jun 2015, 15:55 PM
#132
Posts: 1225
Whats a Tiger Hardcounter? The IS-2, but thats pretty much it. That being said, there are fairly reliable softcounters, double 85s, M 10s also work surprisingly well, on open maps SU 85/ISU and Jacksons will contain the Tiger just fine, but any half decent player will cover his Tiger, and not allow you to just poke it to death from range.
Anyways, TTK is a pretty meaningless metric as far as this game is concerned, burst damage is far more interesting.
Anyways, TTK is a pretty meaningless metric as far as this game is concerned, burst damage is far more interesting.
1 Jun 2015, 16:30 PM
#133
Posts: 1637
if Jackson isn't a tiger hardcounter? then I don't know what is...
P47 more or less and IS2/ISU152. For examples of Hard Counter Elephant vs any Allied TD, Pak vs any Allied TD. The Jackson is a soft counter.
The PTRS's are fine as they are. Whenever i'm up against Guard Infantry, I always have to be careful with my vehicles or the Guards will completely destroy them. Good range, good damage and fairly cheap; if anything, the PTRS should nerfed since it's ridiculously good for the price. Even in the hands of Conscripts, the PTRS's are extremely potent.
1 Jun 2015, 16:55 PM
#134
Posts: 1163
Your arguing over semantics. You could aruge the Jackson is more than a soft counter due to its manoverability vs slow Tiger.
And you could argue pak is only a soft counter because its static and cannot chase.
Hence, not worth arguing over
They are all counters, so greater or lesser extents.
Whats important in this thread, is that if your playing Werh, you really should be looking to Paks for your mainstay AT (esspecially so in 1v1), you can augment with tigers, or Ostwinds or P4s, or whatever as you see fit.. but paks better be your main AT.
Spotting scopes parked next to paks is so good.
And you could argue pak is only a soft counter because its static and cannot chase.
Hence, not worth arguing over
They are all counters, so greater or lesser extents.Whats important in this thread, is that if your playing Werh, you really should be looking to Paks for your mainstay AT (esspecially so in 1v1), you can augment with tigers, or Ostwinds or P4s, or whatever as you see fit.. but paks better be your main AT.
Spotting scopes parked next to paks is so good.
1 Jun 2015, 17:15 PM
#135
Posts: 1637
Your arguing over semantics. You could aruge the Jackson is more than a soft counter due to its manoverability vs slow Tiger.
And you could argue pak is only a soft counter because its static and cannot chase.
Hence, not worth arguing over
Whats important in this thread, is that if your playing Werh, you really should be looking to Paks for your mainstay AT (esspecially so in 1v1), you can augment with tigers, or Ostwinds or P4s, or whatever as you see fit.. but paks better be your main AT.
Spotting scopes parked next to paks is so good.
I wouldnt dismiss it as semantics. Hardcounters have certain implications. A single Jackson is no more deadly to a Tiger then a Single Volks Shrek squad is to an SU85. The most your going to be able to do to it is a little bit of damage and perhaps push it away for repairs. Unless of course the player is brain dead. Its much more risky to use a single Jackson against a Tiger then a Single Tiger against a Jackson.
Thus the Elephant example. An elephant will completely shut down Allied TD play by itself and stands a really good chance to kill the TD.
The PTRS's are fine as they are. Whenever i'm up against Guard Infantry, I always have to be careful with my vehicles or the Guards will completely destroy them. Good range, good damage and fairly cheap; if anything, the PTRS should nerfed since it's ridiculously good for the price. Even in the hands of Conscripts, the PTRS's are extremely potent.
1 Jun 2015, 20:04 PM
#136
Posts: 57
A single jackson is not a hard counter to a tiger.
1 Jun 2015, 21:22 PM
#137
Posts: 2561
The allies currently don't actually have full heavy counters. The only ones are the pak 40, elephant, and jagdtiger.
1 Jun 2015, 22:23 PM
#138
Posts: 1617
The allies currently don't actually have full heavy counters. The only ones are the pak 40, elephant, and jagdtiger.
ISU-152, P-47, IS-2, Marked Target, M36, Shocks.
1 Jun 2015, 22:53 PM
#139
Posts: 2742
Shocks?
Strategic Territory Points Mod:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=604491510
Classic resource points!
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=604491510
Classic resource points!
2 Jun 2015, 00:36 AM
#140
Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2
Permanently Banned
ISU-152, P-47, IS-2, Marked Target, M36, Shocks.
this combination will not beat a properly supported JT or elephant
There is no recording in all WW2 history of a piat actually knocking off a vehicle. Yes, it was THAT bad.
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