They need some kind of upgrade. The only good thing of the obers nerf is that it shows how bad okw infantry really are. technically obers where the only that kept the okw infantry force up.
perhaps flamethrowers or a stg upgrade.
Let's talk about Volksgrenadiers
2 May 2015, 18:37 PM
#21
Posts: 770
2 May 2015, 18:53 PM
#22
Posts: 1637
MP40s are trash. I would rather see STG44s as well. If you want to make them a scalable AI unit. But then again with Pfuse, JLI, Falls and Obers whats the point? Keep them how they are is my opinion. If OKW needs AI all it needs do is call in Pfuse if they dont want to be stuck in that doctrine too bad.
The PTRS's are fine as they are. Whenever i'm up against Guard Infantry, I always have to be careful with my vehicles or the Guards will completely destroy them. Good range, good damage and fairly cheap; if anything, the PTRS should nerfed since it's ridiculously good for the price. Even in the hands of Conscripts, the PTRS's are extremely potent.
2 May 2015, 19:10 PM
#23
Posts: 770
MP40s are trash. I would rather see STG44s as well. If you want to make them a scalable AI unit. But then again with Pfuse, JLI, Falls and Obers whats the point? Keep them how they are is my opinion. If OKW needs AI all it needs do is call in Pfuse if they dont want to be stuck in that doctrine too bad.
Likely you would be bitching if the soviets only had elite infantry in the non call in armour doctrines.
Fusiliers are potent but the okw shouldnt have to rely on callins to shore up their rather lacking AI at the moment. Not to mention obers are UP at the moment.
2 May 2015, 19:13 PM
#24
Posts: 1802 | Subs: 1
Why not? Having a short-mid range assault unit available wouldn't be a bad idea as an extra choice.
Let's say I have 3 volks all with KAR-98s holding the line + 1-2 SMG volks for flanking/defending. A raketen and Sturm with double shreck can hold off armor.
I saw it way too many times that an allied squad ran up to a volk and sent it running home as they can't do shit at short range.
AI upgrade for volks would allow OKW to have a better chance on CQC maps and rely less on obers, which get insta-wiped many occasions.
The concept is totally fine, but MP40s just suck, big time. I'm with Dane on this, but I don't think we see something like that in the future. Simply 3 Pzgren StG44s might do well I think.
2 May 2015, 19:17 PM
#25
Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1
MP40s are trash. I would rather see STG44s as well. If you want to make them a scalable AI unit. But then again with Pfuse, JLI, Falls and Obers whats the point? Keep them how they are is my opinion. If OKW needs AI all it needs do is call in Pfuse if they dont want to be stuck in that doctrine too bad.
Nobody want's to get Obers exactly because of the infantry you mentioned. It's pointless to get them when you don't need to pay for Fallsch to get their FG42's or JLI their good Kars and G43 upgrade.
Pfuss can sometimes hold the enemy back through shear numbers to, but as said by others before it would be interesting if you had to make a choice between the shrek or an AI upgrade, for instance:
Assault AT package: Winter proofing + shrek
Assault AI package: Winter proofing + MP44's
both 90 munitions, and you can make the MP44 slightly worse than the sturm or pgren one like the conscript PPsH is different than the shock one.
2 May 2015, 20:51 PM
#26
Posts: 1637
Pfuse are an elite AI squad even without G43s. There is absolutley nothing bad about Pfuse. If you struggle with Pfuse against Rifles I dont know what to tell you.
@Zyllen
Yep Volks arent the best AI unit. Ok? So OKW shouldnt have any exloitable weakness in the AI department? All of their squads should be better 1 for 1 then everybody elses and also scale to vet 5? No oppurtinunty costs should apply to OKW? Ok then.
Volks are fine. Its not like Rifles just run them over completley. That doesnt happen. Rifles will beat them 1 for 1 every time but will usually lose 2-3 Models per squad doing so. Thats like paying 90 MP to retreat a 240MP squad. That aint bad. And it just gets better with Vet.
@Zyllen
Yep Volks arent the best AI unit. Ok? So OKW shouldnt have any exloitable weakness in the AI department? All of their squads should be better 1 for 1 then everybody elses and also scale to vet 5? No oppurtinunty costs should apply to OKW? Ok then.
Volks are fine. Its not like Rifles just run them over completley. That doesnt happen. Rifles will beat them 1 for 1 every time but will usually lose 2-3 Models per squad doing so. Thats like paying 90 MP to retreat a 240MP squad. That aint bad. And it just gets better with Vet.
The PTRS's are fine as they are. Whenever i'm up against Guard Infantry, I always have to be careful with my vehicles or the Guards will completely destroy them. Good range, good damage and fairly cheap; if anything, the PTRS should nerfed since it's ridiculously good for the price. Even in the hands of Conscripts, the PTRS's are extremely potent.
2 May 2015, 21:41 PM
#27
Posts: 770
Pfuse are an elite AI squad even without G43s. There is absolutley nothing bad about Pfuse. If you struggle with Pfuse against Rifles I dont know what to tell you.
@Zyllen
Yep Volks arent the best AI unit. Ok? So OKW shouldnt have any exloitable weakness in the AI department? All of their squads should be better 1 for 1 then everybody elses and also scale to vet 5? No oppurtinunty costs should apply to OKW? Ok then..
Ok lets recap. Does the okw have some super efficient armour. no. Do they have fuel and ammo bonuses? no in fact it is the opposite. do they have mp bonuses. no.
So why the flying fuck should they have an exploitable weakness in the AI department when they already have a rather colossal economy weakness. If you didnt get the memo the okw is based around elite units that should be better then the allied counterpart. thats why the economy nerf.
i smells load of bias here.
2 May 2015, 21:50 PM
#28
Posts: 2115 | Subs: 1
I think that 120mun on a fragile 320mp 40reinforce squad for OKW would be a little bit too harsh considering their faction design.
Im fine with their Schrecks now.
Im fine with their Schrecks now.
servant to the vet 5 königskübel
b4 and soviet FHQ enthusiast
fan of the illustrious black prince
b4 and soviet FHQ enthusiast
fan of the illustrious black prince
2 May 2015, 22:25 PM
#29
Posts: 1617
3 STG44s or 1 Panzershreck could work on Volks.
2 May 2015, 22:36 PM
#30
Posts: 108 | Subs: 1
lol, volks with smg.
I know, history is stupid.
Now stop asking why the only squad which was significant historically because volksgrenadier divisions had an unusually high number of automatic weapons, has none.
It really makes no sense that the volksgrenadier from COH1 wasn't carbon copied into COH2. The MP40 kit wasn't exactly an assault kit, but what it did was make it extremely punishing to try and close with volks. But volksgrenadiers are just the tip of the iceberg for how poorly thought out the OKW was.
2 May 2015, 23:12 PM
#31
Posts: 1116 | Subs: 1
Permanently Banned
I know, history is stupid.
Now stop asking why the only squad which was significant historically because volksgrenadier divisions had an unusually high number of automatic weapons, has none.
It really makes no sense that the volksgrenadier from COH1 wasn't carbon copied into COH2. The MP40 kit wasn't exactly an assault kit, but what it did was make it extremely punishing to try and close with volks. But volksgrenadiers are just the tip of the iceberg for how poorly thought out the OKW was.
Sturmpioneers.
1337 h4X0R, dank memes
axis
3 May 2015, 00:08 AM
#32
1 Posts: 169
I know, history is stupid.
Now stop asking why the only squad which was significant historically because volksgrenadier divisions had an unusually high number of automatic weapons, has none.
It really makes no sense that the volksgrenadier from COH1 wasn't carbon copied into COH2. The MP40 kit wasn't exactly an assault kit, but what it did was make it extremely punishing to try and close with volks. But volksgrenadiers are just the tip of the iceberg for how poorly thought out the OKW was.
210 mp for a HMG manned by, you guessed it, Volksgrenadiers.
Topic: Volksgrenadiers are supposed to be taking the hits instead of your elite infantry, that is their role. The schreck just gives their role a little more meaning since now you don't want to simply sacrifice them for more Obers, JLI, Pfus, Falls later in the game. It would be nice if they could be upgunned non-doctrinally or doctrinally because pretty much every OKW commander provides some sort infantry-based of anti-infantry support wit the exception of Elite Armour.
Pudding.
3 May 2015, 00:31 AM
#33
Posts: 108 | Subs: 1
210 mp for a HMG manned by, you guessed it, Volksgrenadiers.
Topic: Volksgrenadiers are supposed to be taking the hits instead of your elite infantry, that is their role. The schreck just gives their role a little more meaning since now you don't want to simply sacrifice them for more Obers, JLI, Pfus, Falls later in the game. It would be nice if they could be upgunned non-doctrinally or doctrinally because pretty much every OKW commander provides some sort infantry-based of anti-infantry support wit the exception of Elite Armour.
But what made volks unique was the proliferation of weapons like MP40's and MP44's. They excelled in close quarters combat, or at least that was the intent.
Giving tier 0 and tier 1 infantry a wide proliferation of AT utility has lead to a lot of problems. In COH1 no tier 0 or tier 1 infantry got anything like that except for US riflemen squads who could throw sticky bombs, but those had incredibly short range. Volks had panzerfaust, but those were damage utility, not crit.
Sturmpioneers.
Which in itself was another stupid design choice. They're an assault unit, but they're not. They're an engineer, but they're almost twice as expensive as any other engineer. And critical features of either role- things like flamethrowers, and grenades- are either nearly impossible to get, or intentionally left fairly out of reach (when was the last time you saw those concussive grenades used?)
3 May 2015, 00:38 AM
#34
Posts: 770
210 mp for a HMG manned by, you guessed it, Volksgrenadiers.
Topic: Volksgrenadiers are supposed to be taking the hits instead of your elite infantry, that is their role. The schreck just gives their role a little more meaning since now you don't want to simply sacrifice them for more Obers, JLI, Pfus, Falls later in the game. It would be nice if they could be upgunned non-doctrinally or doctrinally because pretty much every OKW commander provides some sort infantry-based of anti-infantry support wit the exception of Elite Armour.
Yeah that simply is not true at al because 99& of the players will actually target your infantry.
Also being a meatshield doesnt win you games. Obers are shit at the moment JLI are meant a support unit. That leaves FSJ and fusilers.
3 May 2015, 00:50 AM
#35
Posts: 879
It's an ok idea, I would like to see sturmpios not be a starting unit if they are later equipped with shreks (they will probably get too much veterancy to not still be overpowered with a double shrek).
Give OKW a normal builder unit, say with medium range accuracy to differentiate them from Ost pios and combat engineers, with a flamethrower upgrade possible.
Depending on whatever Relic does to the Soviet call-in meta, if you take away Sturms you need to do something to conscripts. I honestly think they need to be 250-260 or have reinforce cost raised.
Which might make conscripts even more UP vs Ostheer once LMGs pop...
Which is why in COH1 we had supply yard upgrades for manpower.
So I dunno.
The more you think about the COH1 faction designs, the harder it is to improve on an originally excellent system.
Give OKW a normal builder unit, say with medium range accuracy to differentiate them from Ost pios and combat engineers, with a flamethrower upgrade possible.
Depending on whatever Relic does to the Soviet call-in meta, if you take away Sturms you need to do something to conscripts. I honestly think they need to be 250-260 or have reinforce cost raised.
Which might make conscripts even more UP vs Ostheer once LMGs pop...
Which is why in COH1 we had supply yard upgrades for manpower.
So I dunno.
The more you think about the COH1 faction designs, the harder it is to improve on an originally excellent system.
3 May 2015, 01:28 AM
#36
1 Posts: 169
Yeah that simply is not true at al because 99& of the players will actually target your infantry.
Also being a meatshield doesnt win you games. Obers are shit at the moment JLI are meant a support unit. That leaves FSJ and fusilers.
But if sturmpioneers, which are already targeted as they are known to be a little fragile, by pretty much everything they come on contact with are now being further targeted because they are the only mobile form of infantry-based AT on top of repairing, laying mines, sweeping mines and building other defenses. Sturmpioneer vet could potentially now rise extremely fast making them to get to vet 3 much faster, assuming that they don't get wiped in the process. Volks will now have next to no utility later in the game and on more open maps their new, shiny MP40s/44s will be largely useless since they won't be able to close the distance or even have the upgrade since you have a lot more to spend your already rationed munitions on like sturmpioneer schreck and sweeper since you now need both.
Pudding.
3 May 2015, 01:55 AM
#37
Posts: 61
Give volks a mp44 x3 upgrade for 90munis, yet still retain the shreck upgrade, of course u can't upgrade both on 1 squad. But then OKW may need a slightly better ATG→buff reketen(6 men squad maybe?).
Leutnant
OberLeutnant
Hauptmann
OberLeutnant
Hauptmann
3 May 2015, 02:44 AM
#38
Posts: 1930
2 x mp44 upgrade and the ability to use faust.
faust for that early m3 soout car and tank snare.
the weak point of the OKW is its lack of durable anti-infantry mid game.
In between the jpz4, kt, panther, puma, and raketen they already have all the anti-tank weapon they needs.
faust for that early m3 soout car and tank snare.
the weak point of the OKW is its lack of durable anti-infantry mid game.
In between the jpz4, kt, panther, puma, and raketen they already have all the anti-tank weapon they needs.
3 May 2015, 06:04 AM
#39
Posts: 4928
If we wanted authenticity, OKW would have a manpower penalty, Volks would be 4 men with MP44/MP40, and StuG III's would be among the most common vehicles.
all you filthy hotchkiss lovers need to l2p #TeamPanzerIII
> Kriegsbeute Doctrine|Partisan Rework|British Infantry Rework|Soviet Assault Squad <
3 May 2015, 06:33 AM
#40
Posts: 108 | Subs: 1
If we wanted authenticity, OKW would have a manpower penalty, Volks would be 4 men with MP44/MP40, and StuG III's would be among the most common vehicles.
Not asking for strict accuracy, just something that at least pays lip service to it rather than some shitty wehraboo wankfest.
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