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russian armor

1941 Factions

20 Apr 2015, 14:08 PM
#21
avatar of FaustCostBulletin

Posts: 521

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Apr 2015, 13:34 PMnee

Just admit that you're really just trying to do a 1941 mod incorporating your own ideas.

The only thing in 1941 that had 88mm firepower was an anti-aircraft emplacement.


No, I am trying to make a concept of a coherent and unique 1941 faction without being lazy and I already have a mod so if I do end up turning these concepts to a mod, it won't be any time soon.

TAW also has many inaccuracies like Pre-Order 227 Penals, M3 Scout Car pre-Lend Lease and MG42s at 1941.

So Pak43 too needs to be replaced too, thanks for pointing that out.

20 Apr 2015, 14:28 PM
#22
avatar of DakkaIsMagic

Posts: 403

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Apr 2015, 14:07 PMnewvan

Not so rare, it was about 508 KV and 967 T-34 build before war (Panzer 38T - 1,414 tanks). In first half year of 1941, with cancelling production of T-26 and BT series, was produced about 393 KV tanks and 1110 Т-34.


Some people just don't want to admit that Germany didn't have the best tanks during all phases of the war.


And the fact that HEAT rounds weren't everywhere during the war nor reliable, as with Katiof's point.

Along with KV-1/2s holding down entire german armored columns for days when every day mattered.

But of course, someone is going to replay to this that it didn't matter, so whatever.
20 Apr 2015, 14:46 PM
#23
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8



Some people just don't want to admit that Germany didn't have the best tanks during all phases of the war.


And the fact that HEAT rounds weren't everywhere during the war nor reliable, as with Katiof's point.

Along with KV-1/2s holding down entire german armored columns for days when every day mattered.

But of course, someone is going to replay to this that it didn't matter, so whatever.


I can see how some people here could be so hell bent over the superior krupp steel idea that they won't even think for a second that there was a time where KV-1 to axis armor was like pre patch KT to USF :clap:
20 Apr 2015, 14:50 PM
#24
avatar of coh2player

Posts: 1571

Production is a different issue. Most of the field forces were equipped with light tanks during the summer-fall. Only the top crust had the newer models. The mech. corps that had the most of them- Southwestern Front- were quickly beaten in the border battles.

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Apr 2015, 14:07 PMnewvan

Not so rare, it was about 508 KV and 967 T-34 build before war (Panzer 38T - 1,414 tanks). In first half year of 1941, with cancelling production of T-26 and BT series, was produced about 393 KV tanks and 1110 Т-34.
20 Apr 2015, 15:08 PM
#25
avatar of newvan

Posts: 354

Production is a different issue. Most of the field forces were equipped with light tanks during the summer-fall. Only the top crust had the newer models. The mech. corps that had the most of them- Southwestern Front- were quickly beaten in the border battles.

Its double standards.
Panzer 38T - core, about 600 tanks for 22 July of 1941.
PzKpfw III - core, about 1000 tanks in different modifications for 1941 on eastern front.
T-34 - rare.
There was more than half of mechanized corps equipped with KV's and T-34 (15 from 29, if I remember correctly), some had more then 400, some like 10, but in 5 there was more then 100, of course they wasn't main tanks of this period, but not rare.
20 Apr 2015, 15:37 PM
#26
avatar of coh2player

Posts: 1571

You seem to be relying solely on numbers. The mech. corps were quickly defeated by all 3 AG and disbanded. The Southwestern Front's T-34/KV inventory came to naught. Afterwards, it was tank brigades and tank divisions, and 100-series TD which were mostly armed with light tanks with a minority of T-34/KV models spread about.

The T-34/KV-1 were rare compared to the various light tanks in Barbarossa in actual combat. The only real operational reversal against the new tank was in Oct. 1941, Mtensk against KG Eberbach.

If translated in-game, the T-34/KV-1 could be seen as the Soviet's "Tigers".
20 Apr 2015, 15:40 PM
#27
avatar of FaustCostBulletin

Posts: 521

I'm having quite a bit of trouble forming a Soviet faction... No T-70, no Penals, no M3 Scout Car... ZiS-6 Truck can replace the M5 Halftrack, but what about all the other niches? Guards would have to be non-doctrinal or something.
20 Apr 2015, 15:46 PM
#28
avatar of newvan

Posts: 354


If translated in-game, the T-34/KV-1 could be seen as the Soviet's "Tigers".

But in same time, of course, Panzer 38T and PzKpfw III are non doctrinal core tanks - all seems legit.

FaustCostBulletin - you also cant use shocks, technically they are ShISBr, and it was formed in 1943. For light vehicle it could be BA-10 or BA-I.
20 Apr 2015, 16:07 PM
#29
avatar of DakkaIsMagic

Posts: 403

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Apr 2015, 15:08 PMnewvan

Its double standards.


Along with nit-picking to the Axis's advantage.
20 Apr 2015, 16:08 PM
#30
avatar of FaustCostBulletin

Posts: 521

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Apr 2015, 15:46 PMnewvan

But in same time, of course, Panzer 38T and PzKpfw III are non doctrinal core tanks - all seems legit.

FaustCostBulletin - you also cant use shocks, technically they are ShISBr, and it was formed in 1943. For light vehicle it could be BA-10 or BA-I.


Yeah, that leaves Guards and Conscripts. Quite the pickle really, the entire Soviet faction needs to be torn apart for a true 1941 faction.
20 Apr 2015, 16:40 PM
#31
avatar of Thunderhun

Posts: 1617

Soviets:

T0:
-CE
-Cons

T1:
-M42 ATG
-Dushka HMG/Maxim
-Snipers

T2:
-Guards (6 Mosin rifles, can upgrade to 2 PTRS)
-Zis 6 Truck (can reinforce and heal)
-82mm Mortar

T3 (requires T1+T2):
-T-34/76
-Ml-152mm Arty Piece

Shocks, KV-1, Katy are doctrinal


USF early war:

T0: Only BARs, Zooks and Nades allowed.
-REs
-Rifles
-Ambulance
-WC-51

T1: LT comes with 3 man, 2 BARs, 1 Thompson.
-50 Cal
-57mm ATG
-M20

T2: Captain comes with 3 man, 2 zooks, 1 Thompson.
-Rangers (4 man with Thompsons)
-Stuart
-MHT

T3: Major is the same
-M10
-M4A3
20 Apr 2015, 16:41 PM
#32
avatar of newvan

Posts: 354

Yeah, that leaves Guards and Conscripts. Quite the pickle really, the entire Soviet faction needs to be torn apart for a true 1941 faction.

I think, in this case, USSR should have liner upgrade system, like OST, with core guards in T2 or T3, and non doctrinal T-34 with KT access model or after expensive upgrade in T3/T4.

T0 - eng, conscripts.
T1 - maxim, mortar, snipers.
T2 - something from BA series, guards, AT gun 53-K (it's easy to make it, it's M-42 with shorter barrel)

, Zis 3 with upgrade to med truck.
T3 - BT-7, maybe GAZ truck with AA

, upgrade for T-34 production.
or
T4 - T-26, ZIS-30 or just ZIS-2 AT gun

BM-8-36


KV-1 and KV-2 doctrinal, most expensive and armoured tanks in the mod, shocks are changed to 6 cons/guards with PPSH and smoke but without armour.
20 Apr 2015, 16:49 PM
#33
avatar of FaustCostBulletin

Posts: 521

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Apr 2015, 16:41 PMnewvan
-snip-


The ZiS-3 actually fits the timeline so the M-42 can remain doctrinal. ZiS-3 would come in quite late as it would be like a Pak43 in this setting (not in damage or range but penetration), since a lot of things need to be replaced, M-42 would probably need to be more commonplace in doctrines anyway.
20 Apr 2015, 16:55 PM
#34
avatar of newvan

Posts: 354



The ZiS-3 actually fits the timeline so the M-42 can remain doctrinal.

Both of them are 1942. I think 53-K will be in good place.
20 Apr 2015, 16:56 PM
#35
avatar of FaustCostBulletin

Posts: 521

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Apr 2015, 16:55 PMnewvan

Both of them are 1942. I think 53-K will be in good place.


Wikipedia mentions 1941 for its production, unless you know something that isn't immediately obvious? Even then it could be an F-22 using the same model.
20 Apr 2015, 17:03 PM
#36
avatar of newvan

Posts: 354



Wikipedia mentions 1941 for its production, unless you know something that isn't immediately obvious? Even then it could be an F-22 using the same model.

M-42, at spring 1942 first prototype, full production January 1943.
Zis-3, its tricky, it was prototype gun, production was cancelled and resumed in December 1941.
20 Apr 2015, 17:04 PM
#37
avatar of FaustCostBulletin

Posts: 521

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Apr 2015, 17:03 PMnewvan

M-42, at spring 1942 first prototype, full production January 1943.
Zis-3, its tricky, it was prototype gun, production was cancelled and resumed in December 1941.


M-42 could just be renamed 53-K I suppose.
20 Apr 2015, 17:06 PM
#38
avatar of newvan

Posts: 354



M-42 could just be renamed 53-K I suppose.

Yes, they are almost same, only visual difference is the shorter barrel of 53-K.
Also to make Zis-2 AT gun, you just need cut off muzzle breaker and make the barrel longer, from this perspective no one will tell the difference between 57mm and 76mm.
20 Apr 2015, 17:37 PM
#39
avatar of coh2player

Posts: 1571

The Panzer 38T and the Panzer III were the 'core tanks' in Barbarossa. The Panzer II, Panzer IV, and 35T were supplementary.

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Apr 2015, 15:46 PMnewvan

But in same time, of course, Panzer 38T and PzKpfw III are non doctrinal core tanks - all seems legit.
20 Apr 2015, 17:37 PM
#40
avatar of FaustCostBulletin

Posts: 521

jump backJump back to quoted post20 Apr 2015, 17:06 PMnewvan

Yes, they are almost same, only visual difference is the shorter barrel of 53-K.
Also to make Zis-2 AT gun, you just need cut off muzzle breaker and make the barrel longer, from this perspective no one will tell the difference between 57mm and 76mm.


Erm, you can't edit models. I'm also not making a mod about this.

ZiS-3 is already a 1941 item, according to Wikipedia.
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