Early game for Ost

I think your analysis is spot on, furthermore I think having factions designed to be stronger than others in early and weaker in the late game is seriously flawed and provides more frustration than enjoyment.

That's what I also think is the biggest weakness of this game. There's no reason a faction be stronger early or later in the game. That's why this game has such a poor design.
The game would have been a lot more successful if it wasn't designed liked this. I personally have seen many people who played the game for a while and then gave it up just because of this frustration.

Idk why the hell they moved the fuel point on semoiskiy so far away...like it wasnt already hard enough to ATTEMPT to hold the middle and prevent harassment at your fuel in 1v1.

You don't know why? because the person who did that never/rarely plays the game actually himself, hence he has no idea!

In my Ost games I tend to get one of the two buildorders:
1) (pio), pio, gren, MG, gren (T2 if USF, pak <-> MG if russians, more grens)
Use your double pios to get ground fast, wire stuff for defence so the MG will fuck up any advancement from allies. You need to try and see the bigger picture when you are using MGs on axis side. "where will he attack from, where can I wire off the best for the next engagement. Camp or cap?" Ask yourself these questions and it should be OK.
Engies also get nice view-range for defence!

2) (pio), gren, gren, MG, gren, T2(if USF)
This is a buildorder where you can get the most firepower from, so this should be used in engagements rather than simple capping. Double gren have a good chance vs 2 engaging rifle squads (if in cover)

I tend to get 40% of the map on most maps, I like to defend in the beginning (especially vs conspam, cause I read that kind of play pretty easy IMO - cause conscript-king Kappa). From here on I tend to grap a bit more territory as time passes if I'm successful, due to the enemy retreat time. Please do note that it's very important to support your MGs, because they aren't supressing like in CoH1 They are insane for the dmg output these days! + PENETRATION-rounds!

If you get 4 units the USF can get an M20 before you grap your pak, simply bait into a mine or faust if for more time. you should have your pak in time before the M20 should be able to annihilate your army.

This just tend to work for me...

Edit:
Also recommend you to:
Preserve munitions for double shreck on PGrens
Think about getting a 222

Lenny, just a quick question about your double pio opening:
Do you build T1 with the first or second pio?
What maps would you get double pios on?

I always veto Kharkov, Stalingrad, and La Gleize.

I think the early game would be better for axis if Riflemen got a fifth man at Vet 2 like RE

I remember playing on La Gleize against a USF guy ranked around 4,000 according to CELO (at the time I was about 1,000) but the first fifteen minutes were insanely hard against his riflemen. What saved me was AP rounds from an MG42 on his AAHT, killing it, then a teller mine on a Stuart (that he saw me put down). He was very bad. But I had such a hard time early game because of the power of the rifles at mid range.

I think if most USF infantry was based around that concept - getting a 5th man at vet 2 - it would give them a bit of a better mid game while making the early game a bit easier.

In short terms:
1) Yes, for the most part this is what I see, but I kinda like the defending part of ost nowadays, especially not vs russia; the matchup is pretty balanced!
2) I have complained about OST - USF since the very beginning, I think the matchup is redicules! First you have to defend (forced), which is often pretty hard, then you have to play the midgame. If you haven't failed yet, then you will have the best odds for winning the match from here on. As time passes the odds will tend to fall in OSTs favors.

While we might think this is dumb, we shouldn't expect things to change, because it's relic who is boss here.

For me it's totally fine to have a "good early, weak late"-army, but why does it have to be that extreme for USF!? I hate that so much

+ I rarely save replays unless something completely bs happened or if a major play was done by my opponent or myself! (So I have no proof of that other strategy of mine)

In short, classic wehr vs USA dynamics from coh1 somewhat translated here.

ALRIGHT U GUYS.
this build order should work for those that are patient and careful with their mg42 placement.

starting pio > hmg > hmg > gren > gren > (mortar optional) > battlephase 1 > pioneer to build t2.

send all your forces to your natural resources (the points on 'your' side of the map.

use pioneer and hmg to cap cutoff/muni/fuel. pioneer should always be capping one sector ahead of the hmg so that the hmg can react to any rifle pushes. pioneers beat rear echelon at close range.

use 2nd hmg to cap any strategic points you missed, and to prepare for the inevitable flank attempt. your grens will arrive to spport the 2nd hmg.

upgrade flamethrowers AS SOON as you have 60 muni. upgrade to t2 AS SOON as you have 45 fuel. the whole strategy here is to stall and hold ground until you get your halftrack and then you push on to their cutoff and you camp it.

once you start teching battlephase 1, queue up a pioneer as soon as you have the manpower. use this pioneer to build the t2 structure. you DO NOT want to retreat the flame thrower pio at all costs. he is your main DPS dealer and use him in conjuction with the mg42 to force retreats so you can slowly creep up to take territory

prioritize upgrading flamethrowers over lmg42s. lmg42s are great but flamethrowers have the potential for massive crits, and you double the chance since you have 2.

once t2 structure is up, you sohuld have enough resources for a halftrack, or else be very close to it. queue it up. as soon as half track is ready gather all your forces and attack the enemies cutoff. most 1v1 cutoffs have some sort of structure. garrison your veteran mg42s into the structure.

odds are the usf player went LT. 2 mg42s counter LT tech completely. why? because the mg42s shut down the lt unit itself, and incind rounds destroy both the m20 and the m15aaht. its very important you leave the mg42s in the building so that the enemy cannot see the reload animation before you shred their light vehicles.

use flamer pios to ward off any rifle flank attempts. use grens as normal, riflenade when possible, get lmg42s once you have flamers etc etc.

some things you must take into consideration:

the usf player is PROBABLY not retarded, so he WILL try to flank. change the position of your machineguns every time you force a retreat.
try to keep the two machine guns within firing range of each other. that way they can support each other when one gets flanked. also remember to keep your pios nearby your machineguns. they help each other, the synergy is real with the spotting as well as flamers.
pay fucking attention to when rifles throw grenades/smoke. once you have a halftrack grenades are almost a non issue since you can just spam reinforce.
remember to play safe in the early game since losing your mg42 = very hrd game
remember once you get your halftrack to aggressive push forward and to not be afraid of unupgrade riflemen because you can outreinforce their dps
remember to bait enemy light vehicles into your incid round mg42s in houses.
remember you can attack ground using flamers to shoot throw smoke and shot blockers
remember to always spot for your mg42s.
remember to lay tellers if you have some extra munitions.
remember that wehr t3 is extremely good against usf right now because a jackson needs 4 shots to kill ostwinds and p4s, while p4s only need 3 shots to kill a jackson and have 1.5 faster rof.
remember that if you successfully camp his cutoff for a long period of time youll be able to get a p4 around the same or earlier time as his sherman, and youll be able to destroy the sherman or atleast bully it and use your p4 to kill his fucking rifles.

if executed properly, youll be floating manpower in the early mid game because youll have suffered minor casualties while your machineguns do all the work in suppressing infantry and forcing retreats. use this manpower surplus to aggressively throw your grens into fights while having a halftrack nearby to reinforce, buy at guns, pgrens etc.

edit: having 3x 4% firerate for mg42s helps abit.

Show Spoiler

Wouldnt CAS be absoulutely sexy with this build/strat?

Yup it's the worst design of this game. USF can gain a strong unit for free by costing 200MP, but OST has to cost 200MP(tech)+120/150 more MP to tech up. More MP more time less effectiveness.

Yup it's the worst design of this game. USF can gain a strong unit for free by costing 200MP, but OST has to cost 200MP(tech)+120/150 more MP to tech up. More MP more time less effectiveness.

Can't forget you need to actually build the tier as well. Forcing you to take your pios off the field at points in the game when you need as many men as possible vs USF. Gotta pay more + you have to build the tiers. Vs americans that don't have to build anything and get free squads for teching.

Ost battlephases need to be reduced to 120 manpower as well as t4 fuel price reduction by around 20 fuel. Theres never a point in the game where I have manpower float as ost unless I have a tiger or a panther on the field. First 20 minutes feels like I'm rationing.

Lenny, just a quick question about your double pio opening:
Do you build T1 with the first or second pio?
What maps would you get double pios on?

I always veto Kharkov, Stalingrad, and La Gleize.

Always make T1 with the first pio. If you make it with the second one you will float 300+manpower before you are able to build other units than simple pios, so unless you want a sniper as a third unit, never do it. (Maybe that would be okay vs USF, dunno...)

Maps? - No idea, buddy. It's pretty good on maps like Kholondy (and K winter) because of wire. Semoir, because of the way the map is build etc. (extreme sight is an advantage here)

Show Spoiler

Wouldnt CAS be absoulutely sexy with this build/strat?

Doctrinal choice is pretty much up to you since you actually don't need to use heavies against usf. CAS, elite troops, lightning war, blitzkrieg, all work pretty well. It's just up to you what you want your mid and late game to look like with docs

ALRIGHT U GUYS.
snip.

excellent write up. Ive had good succes with it but my 1v1 ranks are shite so doesnt say too much Do you have a replay against a good usf plaeyr?

excellent write up. Ive had good succes with it but my 1v1 ranks are shite so doesnt say too much Do you have a replay against a good usf plaeyr?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rk1ZBBItwi0&index=54&list=PLLzJ-mmAx7Rgc_T0k5HQ0Lt8_YB8g3clS

this is the best ive got unfortunately. i went up against several pretty decent players during matchmaking though, just didnt bother to save the replays ._.

that game was when i was still trying to get a feel for my build order, what worked best, etc etc, so its not as streamlined as what is now but it does showcase the cornerstone of my strategy: double MG42 into halftrack into aggressive pressure on enemy cutoff

ALRIGHT U GUYS.
this build order should work for those that are patient and careful with their mg42 placement.

starting pio > hmg > hmg > gren > gren > (mortar optional) > battlephase 1 > pioneer to build t2.

send all your forces to your natural resources (the points on 'your' side of the map.

use pioneer and hmg to cap cutoff/muni/fuel. pioneer should always be capping one sector ahead of the hmg so that the hmg can react to any rifle pushes. pioneers beat rear echelon at close range.

use 2nd hmg to cap any strategic points you missed, and to prepare for the inevitable flank attempt. your grens will arrive to spport the 2nd hmg.

upgrade flamethrowers AS SOON as you have 60 muni. upgrade to t2 AS SOON as you have 45 fuel. the whole strategy here is to stall and hold ground until you get your halftrack and then you push on to their cutoff and you camp it.

once you start teching battlephase 1, queue up a pioneer as soon as you have the manpower. use this pioneer to build the t2 structure. you DO NOT want to retreat the flame thrower pio at all costs. he is your main DPS dealer and use him in conjuction with the mg42 to force retreats so you can slowly creep up to take territory

prioritize upgrading flamethrowers over lmg42s. lmg42s are great but flamethrowers have the potential for massive crits, and you double the chance since you have 2.

once t2 structure is up, you sohuld have enough resources for a halftrack, or else be very close to it. queue it up. as soon as half track is ready gather all your forces and attack the enemies cutoff. most 1v1 cutoffs have some sort of structure. garrison your veteran mg42s into the structure.

odds are the usf player went LT. 2 mg42s counter LT tech completely. why? because the mg42s shut down the lt unit itself, and incind rounds destroy both the m20 and the m15aaht. its very important you leave the mg42s in the building so that the enemy cannot see the reload animation before you shred their light vehicles.

use flamer pios to ward off any rifle flank attempts. use grens as normal, riflenade when possible, get lmg42s once you have flamers etc etc.

some things you must take into consideration:

the usf player is PROBABLY not retarded, so he WILL try to flank. change the position of your machineguns every time you force a retreat.
try to keep the two machine guns within firing range of each other. that way they can support each other when one gets flanked. also remember to keep your pios nearby your machineguns. they help each other, the synergy is real with the spotting as well as flamers.
pay fucking attention to when rifles throw grenades/smoke. once you have a halftrack grenades are almost a non issue since you can just spam reinforce.
remember to play safe in the early game since losing your mg42 = very hrd game
remember once you get your halftrack to aggressive push forward and to not be afraid of unupgrade riflemen because you can outreinforce their dps
remember to bait enemy light vehicles into your incid round mg42s in houses.
remember you can attack ground using flamers to shoot throw smoke and shot blockers
remember to always spot for your mg42s.
remember to lay tellers if you have some extra munitions.
remember that wehr t3 is extremely good against usf right now because a jackson needs 4 shots to kill ostwinds and p4s, while p4s only need 3 shots to kill a jackson and have 1.5 faster rof.
remember that if you successfully camp his cutoff for a long period of time youll be able to get a p4 around the same or earlier time as his sherman, and youll be able to destroy the sherman or atleast bully it and use your p4 to kill his fucking rifles.

if executed properly, youll be floating manpower in the early mid game because youll have suffered minor casualties while your machineguns do all the work in suppressing infantry and forcing retreats. use this manpower surplus to aggressively throw your grens into fights while having a halftrack nearby to reinforce, buy at guns, pgrens etc.

edit: having 3x 4% firerate for mg42s helps abit.

I tryed what you said on Angoville left side ( i was bottom) and despite catching nearly all his riflemen everytime, he still had more map control and had shermans using smoke then getting up close to my pak guns. Couldnt handle the riflemen running everywhere as well as the shermans

I tryed what you said on Angoville left side ( i was bottom) and despite catching nearly all his riflemen everytime, he still had more map control and had shermans using smoke then getting up close to my pak guns. Couldnt handle the riflemen running everywhere as well as the shermans

move up to capture territories after you force retreats, camp his cutoff so it delays his vehicles. this is by no means an easy win strategy, but its quite nice when executed

move up to capture territories after you force retreats, camp his cutoff so it delays his vehicles. this is by no means an easy win strategy, but its quite nice when executed

I really dont think this strat works well in 1vs1 and the map has no cut of points. And angoloville is one of most open maps their is. good build on certain maps however.

I really dont think this strat works well in 1vs1 and the map has no cut of points. And angoloville is one of most open maps their is. good build on certain maps however.

"i dont think this strat works well" ok dont even bother trying it and just disregard my success with it in all game modes.

"map has no cut off points" some what true, but some what wrong at the same time.



the strategic point on the left is a partial cutoff, as is the strategic point in the top right. you can definitely cut off enemy players on this map, and its very easy to camp those points because of the cluster of the structures right there. placing an MG in the white house effectively shuts down most approaches unless the top player goes to the far right edge of the map.

at the start of the game you should send all your troops to the right hand side, no matter what side you are because its easy to defend imo with flamers and mg42s once you get a grip on the structures.

ideally on angoville youll have a vet 1 mg in the white house, and have your grens + ht on the left strategic point in the picture, and then have your pioneers w/ flamers behind the white house to repel any smoke attempts, and your last mg anywhere at your leisure.

If relic focused hard on balancing maps they could easily balance out the game on all factions and game types (1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 4v4).

Focusing on balancing 1v1 through unit and maps and simply balancing maps in the team games.

They need to bring back "fixed positions" if relic wants to balance maps without making symmetrical styled maps.

move up to capture territories after you force retreats, camp his cutoff so it delays his vehicles. this is by no means an easy win strategy, but its quite nice when executed

I was at the bottom and i had the left side so cutting him off would mean giving up the left side since the left and right are divided by hedges. I didnt want to completely give up the left side just to take his cutoff. It was really one or the other

"i dont think this strat works well" ok dont even bother trying it and just disregard my success with it in all game modes.

"map has no cut off points" some what true, but some what wrong at the same time.



the strategic point on the left is a partial cutoff, as is the strategic point in the top right. you can definitely cut off enemy players on this map, and its very easy to camp those points because of the cluster of the structures right there. placing an MG in the white house effectively shuts down most approaches unless the top player goes to the far right edge of the map.

at the start of the game you should send all your troops to the right hand side, no matter what side you are because its easy to defend imo with flamers and mg42s once you get a grip on the structures.

ideally on angoville youll have a vet 1 mg in the white house, and have your grens + ht on the left strategic point in the picture, and then have your pioneers w/ flamers behind the white house to repel any smoke attempts, and your last mg anywhere at your leisure.

I said that wrong . my apologies i never intended to doubt your abilities. But i dont know how you used the mg42's in your strategy. generally i go 4 grens tech up then 222/track then buy a mg.

I think we need Pz-III and Pz-I commanders with early game support for Ost instead of all late game oriented commanders.