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russian armor

WHAT ABOUT SU85 ??

13 Apr 2015, 07:10 AM
#81
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8



What is supporting your Jadgtiger? An allied player without armor support is a allied player who will lose a game.

CaptainSprice begs to differ and he is hardly a scrub.
13 Apr 2015, 11:17 AM
#82
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

What's with all the suggestions to remove focus sight? I thought this thread was about buffing the SU-85, not nerfing it into the ground.
13 Apr 2015, 11:57 AM
#83
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

What's with all the suggestions to remove focus sight? I thought this thread was about buffing the SU-85, not nerfing it into the ground.

I'm pretty sure we'd find axis fanboys bitching that SU-76 should have nerfed stuff as well.
Thats the world of coh2 community.
13 Apr 2015, 12:41 PM
#84
avatar of flyingtiger

Posts: 142


Horrible idea, a good example is the jagdtiger costing more than a king in game when it wasnt the case. Or even panthers, which only costed 10% more to produce than a panzer in terms of price yet in game they are significantly more expensive.

Simply put this kind of logic can't just simply be put on one unit arbitrarily, but not others. The su85 performs well for its cost which is actually quite cheap. You all just feel underwhelmed because unlike the germans the soviets don't have some more expensive better tank to use. So they use the cheaper tanks. Its like transitioning from panzer 4s to panthers. But soviets stay on panzer4s.

I doubt it really...
Well, let's see here:

King Tiger vs Jagdtiger:
Armor: 185 vs 250
Gun: 88 mm vs 128 mm

A massive difference compares to

T-34/76 vs Su-85:
Armor: same 45 mm
Gun: 76 mm vs 85 mm


Whats the key difference? Su85s are better vs armor than panzer4s, and still pose a threat to heavy vehicles. Considering 125 fuel what do you want?

I just want it to not suck. Answer me honestly, just how many high level games did you see Su-85 was used effectively?


What's with all the suggestions to remove focus sight? I thought this thread was about buffing the SU-85, not nerfing it into the ground

What's the use of the "Tracking" ability then?

Besides, removing Focus Sight and decrease its cost to 310 mp and 100 fuel is a buff, not a nerf.
13 Apr 2015, 13:01 PM
#85
avatar of OZtheWiZARD

Posts: 1439



What is supporting your Jadgtiger? An allied player without armor support is a allied player who will lose a game.

EDIT: You have never even used it lol, why am I saying this.



I fought against it countless number of times.
There is nothing OKW player can do to stop me from getting behind Jadgtiger. Single tank behind it and it's a dead Jadgtiger. I can see however this unit working in 3v3 and above. To some extend 2v2.

But you know what? Please, prove me wrong, provide me one competent use of Jagdtiger in 1v1. Show me how to do it.
13 Apr 2015, 13:41 PM
#86
avatar of wongtp

Posts: 647




I fought against it countless number of times.
There is nothing OKW player can do to stop me from getting behind Jadgtiger. Single tank behind it and it's a dead Jadgtiger. I can see however this unit working in 3v3 and above. To some extend 2v2.

But you know what? Please, prove me wrong, provide me one competent use of Jagdtiger in 1v1. Show me how to do it.


its more of a 2v2 unit than a 1v1. panthers/p4s from parters covering it usually means its quite impregnable. considering how rocket artillery dont penetrate tanks and howitzers are in crappy doctrines, its actually quite difficult to displace axis tanks from clumping up and supporting each other.

while jagds can smash allied tank destroyers (su85s/jacksons) and rocket artillery to wipe support teams. its really difficult to actually mount a good frontal assault against the jagd, since allied infantry AT is quite a fail, AT guns are extremely hard countered by stukas and the jagd itself outranges all tank destroyers. there is nothing that can really threaten the jagd from the front, unless ISU or good B4 hits.
13 Apr 2015, 22:25 PM
#87
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

What's the use of the "Tracking" ability then?


After the nerf... None. I think it makes units appear on the minimap to about 50 meters, but it's nothing like what it used to do.
15 Apr 2015, 12:02 PM
#88
avatar of flyingtiger

Posts: 142



After the nerf... None. I think it makes units appear on the minimap to about 50 meters, but it's nothing like what it used to do.

You never use "Tracking"? It not only makes infantry appear on the minimap, but also increases the Su-85's sight range for about 50%. That's a lot.

I see no point in having Tracking and Focus Sight on the same unit.

And although Focus Sight gives better range and is free, it significantly reduces the Su-85's mobility and increase micro intensive. While its 340 mp and 125 fuel cost (on top of Soviet's already expensive tech cost) is unbearable if you want to use both T3 and T4. Those contribute to the call-ins problem.

15 Apr 2015, 12:12 PM
#89
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8


You never use "Tracking"? It not only makes infantry appear on the minimap, but also increases the Su-85's sight range for about 50%. That's a lot.

It doesn't for at least half a year.
Cost was doubled and effectiveness was more then halved.
Obviously not a word about it in the patch notes.
Its currently most underpowered AT gun/TD vet ability in game. Its also most expensive one.
16 Apr 2015, 02:48 AM
#90
avatar of flyingtiger

Posts: 142

jump backJump back to quoted post15 Apr 2015, 12:12 PMKatitof

It doesn't for at least half a year.
Cost was doubled and effectiveness was more then halved.
Obviously not a word about it in the patch notes.
Its currently most underpowered AT gun/TD vet ability in game. Its also most expensive one.

If they remove focus sight, then tracking can be improved a little. That and the cost decrease for Su-85 are the key to solve Soviet call ins problem in my opinion.
16 Apr 2015, 02:50 AM
#91
avatar of Nuclear Arbitor
Patrion 28

Posts: 2470

the su-85 really depends on focused sight to be competitive. that ability is its one advantage over the other TDs and it's not unique to the su-85 either.

i think it's shit game design to put that kind of ability on units like the su-85, ISU-152, elephant, and jpIV but relic has done a lot of questionable things.
16 Apr 2015, 03:15 AM
#92
avatar of Aladdin

Posts: 959

jump backJump back to quoted post7 Apr 2015, 01:48 AMCieZ
Su85 is literally the worst tank in the game. Unless the Stuart counts as a tank... maybe that's the worst.

Actually, the the Su76 is the worst with the Su85 being a close second. It struggles to ever kill anything heavier than a light vehicle, will never kill a heavy, is less than useless against infantry, has no great utility... like... it's just super bad.

Really needs focus sight removed in exchange for an accuracy increasing ability at Vet 1 and a slight mobility increase. The DPS is fine, I guess. But everything else about it kinda sucks.

Or maybe leave it as is with a slight cost decrease and decrease the amount of pop-cap it takes up slightly, to make fielding 2 more feasible.


SU-85 penetrates quite reliably, even with KT you have to be careful against it, and is a very good tank destroyer FOR ITS PRICE.
17 Apr 2015, 10:30 AM
#93
avatar of flyingtiger

Posts: 142

Yeah yeah, the Su-85 is sooo good and that's why you almost never see it in high level games :snfCHVGame:.
17 Apr 2015, 10:35 AM
#94
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post16 Apr 2015, 03:15 AMAladdin


SU-85 penetrates quite reliably, even with KT you have to be careful against it, and is a very good tank destroyer FOR ITS PRICE.

Penetrates reliably what?
50% chance for panther.
Little over 50% for tiger.
About 43% for KT.

Coin toss is not reliable.
You want reliable penetration values, check Panther or Jackson.

Its not bad, but against heavies reliable is the last word I would describe it with.
17 Apr 2015, 11:04 AM
#95
avatar of Aladdin

Posts: 959

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Apr 2015, 10:35 AMKatitof

Penetrates reliably what?
50% chance for panther.
Little over 50% for tiger.
About 43% for KT.

Coin toss is not reliable.
You want reliable penetration values, check Panther or Jackson.

Its not bad, but against heavies reliable is the last word I would describe it with.


Yes Jackson is more reliable for its penetration, and panther is a different tank, panther is the best medium tank in the game (fair enough considering its price), but it's not a proper tank destroyer like SU85,JP4, or Jackson. But SU85 is a great tank destroyer FOR ITS PRICE.
17 Apr 2015, 11:11 AM
#96
avatar of Nuclear Arbitor
Patrion 28

Posts: 2470

uh, the main gun stats on the V tell me that it's a tank destroyer.
17 Apr 2015, 11:19 AM
#97
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Apr 2015, 11:04 AMAladdin


Yes Jackson is more reliable for its penetration, and panther is a different tank, panther is the best medium tank in the game (fair enough considering its price), but it's not a proper tank destroyer like SU85,JP4, or Jackson. But SU85 is a great tank destroyer FOR ITS PRICE.

Umm, panther is tank destroyer for the last 8 years since coh1.
You can argue against that, but you won't get far that way.

SU-85 costs as much as medium generalist tank and its usefulness is as good as going against medium generalist tanks. Jackson costs exactly as much and while its worse against mediums, its incomparably better against anything over P4.
That's why you see T34/85, IS-2 and ISUs instead of it.
You can again argue against that, but that's another dead end for you.
17 Apr 2015, 12:51 PM
#98
avatar of Aladdin

Posts: 959

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Apr 2015, 11:19 AMKatitof

Umm, panther is tank destroyer for the last 8 years since coh1.
You can argue against that, but you won't get far that way.

SU-85 costs as much as medium generalist tank and its usefulness is as good as going against medium generalist tanks. Jackson costs exactly as much and while its worse against mediums, its incomparably better against anything over P4.
That's why you see T34/85, IS-2 and ISUs instead of it.
You can again argue against that, but that's another dead end for you.


Panther is a tank destroyer, but I mean it's not a proper tank destroyer with 60 range like SU85, JP4, or Jackson, that's a problem Ost has, which they lack such a unit in their base army.

About Jackson, they improved its penetration because of this faction's design which people complained they have problem dealing with the axis heavies, but do soviets really have such a problem!! lol because Jackson's penetration is improved u reckon SU's should be improved as well!!! ;)

lol I love that you keep saying that "it's dead end for u!" and "u can't argue against that!" it's so cute! :)

17 Apr 2015, 13:30 PM
#99
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

Tank destroyer is a little bit wider term then 60 range.

Otherwise Puppchen is not AT gun, M-42 is not an AT gun, bazooka is not AT weapon, Pack howitzer is not a howitzer, M3(soviet one) is not infantry transport, sov sniper is not a sniper, KW-8 is not a heavy tank and so on.

But sure, have a point of view as narrow as Su-85 focused vision. I'm sure it'll do you good.
17 Apr 2015, 13:49 PM
#100
avatar of flyingtiger

Posts: 142

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Apr 2015, 12:51 PMAladdin


Panther is a tank destroyer, but I mean it's not a proper tank destroyer with 60 range like SU85, JP4, or Jackson, that's a problem Ost has, which they lack such a unit in their base army.

About Jackson, they improved its penetration because of this faction's design which people complained they have problem dealing with the axis heavies, but do soviets really have such a problem!! lol because Jackson's penetration is improved u reckon SU's should be improved as well!!! ;)

lol I love that you keep saying that "it's dead end for u!" and "u can't argue against that!" it's so cute! :)


Just theory crafting won't do you any good.

Do you have any high level replays in tournaments which Su-85 was used and helped in winning the game?

If not, then the answer is clear: Su-85 is not good enough to justify its cost.
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