USF wishes for patch

One has turrets the other one does not. this makes the jackson far better then the su85 or jp4 on most maps.

Better at maybe getting one extra hit in before it has to retreat with inferior Penetration and far inferior to the SU85 at taking out OKWs T4 truck as anything spotting for the Jack will get leveled. The SU85 can fire safely at Max range outside of the annihilation cannons range and has more DPS to kill it faster.

All three have advantages that the others do not posses. The Jp4 for example has one of the best Vet 1 abilities, huge armor and a small target size. In a Shoot out the Jp4 will beat the Jackson everytime. Also doctrine choice for the Soviets plays a big part. An SU85 with Mark Vehicle is much much more deadly then a Jackson.

The whole point of this though as I am sure you will ignore is that the Jackson is better because 240 a shot! Thats not the bonus everyone makes it out to be as shown in the above posts. Back to the Sturmtiger reference.

ALEX! LOOK AT THE STATS MAN! lol

SU85 cost plus teching minus starting fuel

Building 1 50 fuel Building 2 120 fuel starts with 50 fuel. Total Fuel tech cost? 120. SU85 cost? 120. 240 Fuel. Else AT nade and molo 50 fuel 290 fuel.

Jackson cost plus teching minus starting fuel

LT 50 fuel Major 90 fuel 10 starting fuel. Total tech cost 130. Jackson cost? 125. 255 fuel
Else Grenades, BAR, Ambulance 25+15+10 = 50 fuel. 305 fuel total.

Captain 80 fuel Major 90 fuel 10 starting fuel. Total tech cost 160 fuel. Jackson cost? 125. 285 fuel. Else Grenades, BAR, Ambulance 25+15+10 = 50 fuel. 335 Fuel.

JagdPanzer IV Tech cost minus starting fuel? 0 thats right GOOSE EGG! Unit cost? 135 fuel.

JagdPanzer has a smaller target size then the Panther by FAR in fact smaller then most light vehicles and DPS of 32-25. With enough Pen to ignore all USFs armor values but the Easy 8s/Dozer at Max range.

Panther DPS? 21-15. Tech cost? 80 fuel. 170 fuel for the unit itself. Total fuel? 250. So AS YOU CAN SEE the Panther can arrive around the time of the first USF vehicle. At the same time if the USF player techd to Nades, BARs and Ambu or went Captain tech.

Please take the time to look this stuff up before you make claims. Its gets tiring digging up the stats to crush your intentional or accidental misinformation.

Edit: I am going to start calling the USF fuel starved since all their tech is more expensive then Soviets and OKWs. USF is a fuel starved faction. Oh yeah and to scale need alot of Muni so they are also Muni starved.

Edit again: Forgot the JP4 also has a mini version of focus sites up all the time. They spot for themselves. The Panther does not.And the Jp4 has 60 range. The Panther has 50.

And why again would you not use OKWs reduced fuel income for your math?
And why would anyone directly tech to a Jackson? Just for the lulz, right?

Btw.: the JP4 "focus sites" are a vet special.



Let's even say both players want directly a Panther or Jackson, for whatever useless reason.
Let's even say he places T1, you get an Amb, both for the starting fuel, map control is equal, and you both start with the same income from minute 0 (which is even impossible, because you got the superior capping power at start, and / or superior map control shortly after)

OKW needs 80 (120) for T3, you need 140 for T1 > T3, or approx 1 minute longer.
But here's the slight problem: he still needs another equivalent of 242 fuel for a Panther, ((175*1,5)-20)... that's quite some time where you can do whatever the hell floats your boat at this stage of the game.

So, even in your weird vacuum example, the Panther will never arrive at the same time of a rushed USF vehicle.

And why again would you not use OKWs reduced fuel income for your math?

Because the faction design already takes it in account. OKW's Fuel units are cheaper than their Other faction equivalent. Like OKW panther cost vs Ostheer panther cost.

So why would we count them twice?

Because the faction design already takes it in account. OKW's Fuel units are cheaper than their Other faction equivalent. Like OKW panther cost vs Ostheer panther cost.

So why would we count them twice?

The OKW Panther itself costs exactly the same as the OST version. Difference is: you can skip tech, which is cheaper then, but you have to pay the same pricetag with 66% income.

JHeartless was argumenting about when certain units hit the field, the different income is a huge factor in this.
We could also use 66% income as a baseline, but obv. using 100% is more logical.

And why again would you not use OKWs reduced fuel income for your math?
And why would anyone directly tech to a Jackson? Just for the lulz, right?

Btw.: the JP4 "focus sites" are a vet special.



Let's even say both players want directly a Panther or Jackson, for whatever useless reason.
Let's even say he places T1, you get an Amb, both for the starting fuel, map control is equal, and you both start with the same income from minute 0 (which is even impossible, because you got the superior capping power at start, and / or superior map control shortly after)

OKW needs 80 (120) for T3, you need 140 for T1 > T3, or approx 1 minute longer.
But here's the slight problem: he still needs another equivalent of 242 fuel for a Panther, ((175*1,5)-20)... that's quite some time where you can do whatever the hell floats your boat at this stage of the game.

So, even in your weird vacuum example, the Panther will never arrive at the same time of a rushed USF vehicle.

It isnt a weird vaccum example and is in the conext of refuting Alexs many false claims. Primarily in this post around Tech costs. USF has one of the highest. In a 1v1 assuming equal map control the USF may get upwards of 100-120 more fuel on average assuming a game lasting 20 mins then OKW depending on if its the Size of Kholdney or Minsk so please stop with the OMG FUEL STARVED! i.e if you control the map and kill a single Medium no more fuel advantage for USF. So to enjoy this benefit they must lose 0 armored units all game long AND the USF player must not go Captain.

Further in 1v1 going directly to Panther is very common for OKW. And it usually arrives shortly after the first Sherman in most games. And depending on Map control and I know youll find this HARD to BELIEVE! But OKW can have superior map control and have the Panther arrive at the same time as the Sherman. Its rare but it happens. Either way 1 Sherman is going to do 0 to a Panther with that 1-2 min difference anyway.

BTW JP4s focus sites are not vet related. Go load up cheat mod and test for yourself. IT GETS BETTER with Vet. And even then its not even as good as the SU85s. Again if you are going to argue stats please check them first.

JP4
Sight
Detect mine:
0.0
Detect camo:
10.0
Extended radius:
70.0
Extended:
false
Cone start radius:
4.5
Cone angle:
140.0
Inner radius:
1.0
Outer radius:
45.0

Panther
Sight
Detect mine:
0.0
Detect camo:
10.0
Extended radius:
70.0
Extended:
false
Cone start radius:
0.0
Cone angle:
360.0
Inner radius:
1.0
Outer radius:
35.0
Inner height:
-3.0
Outer height:
2.5

The OKW Panther itself costs exactly the same as the OST version. Difference is: you can skip tech, which is cheaper then, but you have to pay the same pricetag with 66% income.

JHeartless was argumenting about when certain units hit the field, the different income is a huge factor in this.
We could also use 66% income as a baseline, but obv. using 100% is more logical.

So it cost less. OKW panther comes way faster in the field than Ostheer one, so at the end OKW is never late in his teching, it is quite the opposite actually since OKW can deploy his T4 faster than any other faction. OKW isn't starving of anything.

Anyway, the only wish is to have from this patch is balance stuff, 6 months to build it is quite a lot and we are clearly in right to expect something working and bug free.

ALEX! LOOK AT THE STATS MAN! lol

SU85 cost plus teching minus starting fuel

Building 1 50 fuel Building 2 120 fuel starts with 50 fuel. Total Fuel tech cost? 120. SU85 cost? 120. 240 Fuel. Else AT nade and molo 50 fuel 290 fuel.

Jackson cost plus teching minus starting fuel

LT 50 fuel Major 90 fuel 10 starting fuel. Total tech cost 130. Jackson cost? 125. 255 fuel
Else Grenades, BAR, Ambulance 25+15+10 = 50 fuel. 305 fuel total.

Captain 80 fuel Major 90 fuel 10 starting fuel. Total tech cost 160 fuel. Jackson cost? 125. 285 fuel. Else Grenades, BAR, Ambulance 25+15+10 = 50 fuel. 335 Fuel.

JagdPanzer IV Tech cost minus starting fuel? 0 thats right GOOSE EGG! Unit cost? 135 fuel.

JagdPanzer has a smaller target size then the Panther by FAR in fact smaller then most light vehicles and DPS of 32-25. With enough Pen to ignore all USFs armor values but the Easy 8s/Dozer at Max range.

Panther DPS? 21-15. Tech cost? 80 fuel. 170 fuel for the unit itself. Total fuel? 250. So AS YOU CAN SEE the Panther can arrive around the time of the first USF vehicle. At the same time if the USF player techd to Nades, BARs and Ambu or went Captain tech.

Please take the time to look this stuff up before you make claims. Its gets tiring digging up the stats to crush your intentional or accidental misinformation.

Edit: I am going to start calling the USF fuel starved since all their tech is more expensive then Soviets and OKWs. USF is a fuel starved faction. Oh yeah and to scale need alot of Muni so they are also Muni starved.

Edit again: Forgot the JP4 also has a mini version of focus sites up all the time. They spot for themselves. The Panther does not.And the Jp4 has 60 range. The Panther has 50.

You don't get to arbitrarily factor in the cost of nades an a ambulance when talking about the fuel cost of the Jackson. The Major tier is only 90 fuel and comes with several good tanks. T4 for Soviets is 120 fuel and comes with an insanely useless unit in the form of the SU-76. Not to mention the fact that you keep ignoring that even if the Jackson only cost 15 fuel more it has a turret, higher damage, moves faster, and is more accurate.

You don't get to have a mobile TD with almost double the damage of the other TD's then on top ask to have just as much armor and health. And by the way, all the things that would normally be shooting at a Jackson have just as much garenteed a pen chance against a SU-85, which is much less mobile and doesn't have a turret.

The JPIV is the most unmaneuverable medium in the game, do you think it has good armor as a joke? No, it has good armor because it is extremely hard to maneuver around the battlefield and it lacks even the ability to traverse it's main gun like the SU-85 can. So what if it's free if you make the BG HQ as your first HQ? Nobody is going to ever make it their first piece of armor because is massively delays your Schwer and the JPIV can't deal with how mobile allied mediums are.

The whole point of this though as I am sure you will ignore is that the Jackson is better because 240 a shot! Thats not the bonus everyone makes it out to be as shown in the above posts. Back to the Sturmtiger reference.

Except a Sturmtiger has a 50 second reload between shots. If it could do it's damage faster everyone would say it is OP as shit. It also doesn't track anymore.

The Jackson is not only better because it has 240 damage a shot, it has great mobility compared to the other medium TD's.

Because the faction design already takes it in account. OKW's Fuel units are cheaper than their Other faction equivalent. Like OKW panther cost vs Ostheer panther cost.

So why would we count them twice?

No they are not. the Ostheer and OKW Panther are both 175 fuel. Teching doesn't change the fact your still at a resource disadvantage which means replacing your losses is far more costly. The KT is the most expensive tank in the game despite being only 30 fuel more expensive than the IS2 thanks to teching costs.

You don't get to arbitrarily factor in the cost of nades an a ambulance when talking about the fuel cost of the Jackson. The Major tier is only 90 fuel and comes with several good tanks. T4 for Soviets is 120 fuel and comes with an insanely useless unit in the form of the SU-76. Not to mention the fact that you keep ignoring that even if the Jackson only cost 15 fuel more it has a turret, higher damage, moves faster, and is more accurate.

You don't get to have a mobile TD with almost double the damage of the other TD's then on top ask to have just as much armor and health. And by the way, all the things that would normally be shooting at a Jackson have just as much garenteed a pen chance against a SU-85, which is much less mobile and doesn't have a turret.

The JPIV is the most unmaneuverable medium in the game, do you think it has good armor as a joke? No, it has good armor because it is extremely hard to maneuver around the battlefield and it lacks even the ability to traverse it's main gun like the SU-85 can. So what if it's free if you make the BG HQ as your first HQ? Nobody is going to ever make it their first piece of armor because is massively delays your Schwer and the JPIV can't deal with how mobile allied mediums are.



Except a Sturmtiger has a 50 second reload between shots. If it could do it's damage faster everyone would say it is OP as shit. It also doesn't track anymore.

The Jackson is not only better because it has 240 damage a shot, it has great mobility compared to the other medium TD's.



No they are not. the Ostheer and OKW Panther are both 175 fuel. Teching doesn't change the fact your still at a resource disadvantage which means replacing your losses is far more costly. The KT is the most expensive tank in the game despite being only 30 fuel more expensive than the IS2 thanks to teching costs.

I feel this debate is getting a bit out of hand in terms of the theory you guys are using. The fact of the matter is, the Jackson is the pinnacle of what the USF can field in terms of an anti-tank vehicle. If you look at the options they have compared to the Axis factions (OKW is much more guilty of this than OST) then the Jackson needs to be effective. How else are Americans meant to deal with heavy tanks?

They have
1) mines which require a certain amount of luck and can only be placed by the m20
2) Bazookas which are not effective against anything with thicker armour than a panzer 4
3) Sherman which again can not take on heavy tanks unless in numbers and you flank
4) Doctrinal stuff like the M10 wolverine and p47
5) The Jackson

Now OKW have volks with their ubiquitous panzershrek and to be honest that's all they need to back up their vehicles such as the Panther. Until volks get looked at Allied vs. Axis vehicle combat will always be frustrating to the Allies.

I made a thread a while back about the penetration value of shreks and it's quite crazy how reliable they are.

Once again, if the Jackson is meant to be the be all end all of USF anti-tank capability, having basically a coin toss against the Panther to pentrate just leads to a lot of frustration. Can you imagine having a sniper that missed 50% of it's shots? Who's going to use that as it is just not reliable.

Something has to be said in regards to the faction with lower armour values and low penetration anti-tank capabilities going up against higher armour value units with superior penetration capabilities.

As I said earlier, increase the penetration value to 240/220/200 and decrease it's dmg to 160. That way T3 units such as the Panzer 4 can take more shots and the Jackson becomes more reliable against the Panther. Before you start about 240 penetration up close remember that the Jackson has 480hp and poor armour, if it is that close to an enemy tank it is in serious trouble.

I feel this debate is getting a bit out of hand in terms of the theory you guys are using. The fact of the matter is, the Jackson is the pinnacle of what the USF can field in terms of an anti-tank vehicle. If you look at the options they have compared to the Axis factions (OKW is much more guilty of this than OST) then the Jackson needs to be effective. How else are Americans meant to deal with heavy tanks?

They have
1) mines which require a certain amount of luck and can only be placed by the m20
2) Bazookas which are not effective against anything with thicker armour than a panzer 4
3) Sherman which again can not take on heavy tanks unless in numbers and you flank
4) Doctrinal stuff like the M10 wolverine and p47
5) The Jackson

Now OKW have volks with their ubiquitous panzershrek and to be honest that's all they need to back up their vehicles such as the Panther. Until volks get looked at Allied vs. Axis vehicle combat will always be frustrating to the Allies.

I made a thread a while back about the penetration value of shreks and it's quite crazy how reliable they are.

Once again, if the Jackson is meant to be the be all end all of USF anti-tank capability, having basically a coin toss against the Panther to pentrate just leads to a lot of frustration. Can you imagine having a sniper that missed 50% of it's shots? Who's going to use that as it is just not reliable.

Something has to be said in regards to the faction with lower armour values and low penetration anti-tank capabilities going up against higher armour value units with superior penetration capabilities.

As I said earlier, increase the penetration value to 240/220/200 and decrease it's dmg to 160. That way T3 units such as the Panzer 4 can take more shots and the Jackson becomes more reliable against the Panther. Before you start about 240 penetration up close remember that the Jackson has 480hp and poor armour, if it is that close to an enemy tank it is in serious trouble.

This is all perfectly fine with me. But the point has been made USF needs better AT outside the Jackson.

This is all perfectly fine with me. But the point has been made USF needs better AT outside the Jackson.

That we agree on, I would rather the USF have options rather than just going Airborne for p47 with Jackson/Sherman combo etc.

The more viable builds in the game the better it is for the meta.

Hopefully with this patch coming up Relic will allow that to happen, I don't want Axis or Allies to be at a disadvantage as it hurts the game in the long run. It's no fun winning a game when the cards are stacked in your favour (be that axis or allies).

You don't get to arbitrarily factor in the cost of nades an a ambulance when talking about the fuel cost of the Jackson. The Major tier is only 90 fuel and comes with several good tanks. T4 for Soviets is 120 fuel and comes with an insanely useless unit in the form of the SU-76. Not to mention the fact that you keep ignoring that even if the Jackson only cost 15 fuel more it has a turret, higher damage, moves faster, and is more accurate.

You don't get to have a mobile TD with almost double the damage of the other TD's then on top ask to have just as much armor and health. And by the way, all the things that would normally be shooting at a Jackson have just as much garenteed a pen chance against a SU-85, which is much less mobile and doesn't have a turret.

The JPIV is the most unmaneuverable medium in the game, do you think it has good armor as a joke? No, it has good armor because it is extremely hard to maneuver around the battlefield and it lacks even the ability to traverse it's main gun like the SU-85 can. So what if it's free if you make the BG HQ as your first HQ? Nobody is going to ever make it their first piece of armor because is massively delays your Schwer and the JPIV can't deal with how mobile allied mediums are.



Except a Sturmtiger has a 50 second reload between shots. If it could do it's damage faster everyone would say it is OP as shit. It also doesn't track anymore.

The Jackson is not only better because it has 240 damage a shot, it has great mobility compared to the other medium TD's.



No they are not. the Ostheer and OKW Panther are both 175 fuel. Teching doesn't change the fact your still at a resource disadvantage which means replacing your losses is far more costly. The KT is the most expensive tank in the game despite being only 30 fuel more expensive than the IS2 thanks to teching costs.

Once again you ignore everything I posted. 120 fuel is all the Soviets need to Pay for. Starting fuel. US Pays more even without the Ambu or upgrades. As you can clearly see.

You said the Panther is better in every way than the JP4 I showed you that you are wrong. Because you are. There are lots of stats the JP4 has that are better. Doenst mean easier to use in an A move blob scenrio but nonetheless the JP4 has lots of better stats then the Panther.

SturmTiger has a 50 reload and that was precisely my point. Saying its really good ignoring the horrid reload is like saying the Jackson is really good ignoring its reload. As I have shown you time and time again Time to Kill tanks is what counts. And the Jackson even when Penetrating will do it slower then the Casemate TDs. It already has an inbuilt weakness. Let alone its horrid surviability.

I guess doing less damage then the SU85 means double? Because AGAIN you are ignoring DPS and straw manning away at the 240 a shot. But I must digress because your brickwall nature and straw man arguments are becoming tiring for me. You can lead a horse to water and all that...

Once again you ignore everything I posted. 120 fuel is all the Soviets need to Pay for. Starting fuel. US Pays more even without the Ambu or upgrades. As you can clearly see.

You said the Panther is better in every way than the JP4 I showed you that you are wrong. Because you are. There are lots of stats the JP4 has that are better. Doenst mean easier to use in an A move blob scenrio but nonetheless the JP4 has lots of better stats then the Panther.

SturmTiger has a 50 reload and that was precisely my point. Saying its really good ignoring the horrid reload is like saying the Jackson is really good ignoring its reload. As I have shown you time and time again Time to Kill tanks is what counts. And the Jackson even when Penetrating will do it slower then the Casemate TDs. It already has an inbuilt weakness. Let alone its horrid surviability.

I guess doing less damage then the SU85 means double? Because AGAIN you are ignoring DPS and straw manning away at the 240 a shot. But I must digress because your brickwall nature and straw man arguments are becoming tiring for me. You can lead a horse to water and all that...

The Jackson doesn't have a 50 second reload time. The Alpha damage is much more important than DPS when dealing with fast tanks because the tank can scoot away if your not doing that much damage. If the Jackson had better DPS it would be better versus heavies now, but right now it's amazing because the minute an enemy tank pops into view you can force it to retreat because of how the Alpha damage compounds with multiple Jacksons as well as other AT.


The JPIV is just a worse Panther without a turret or gun traverse, it has all worse mobility stats, worse armor and health, and it has much less penetration. There is no reason to get a JPIV unless you need more immediate AT and you can't get a Panther.

So it cost less. OKW panther comes way faster in the field than Ostheer one, so at the end OKW is never late in his teching, it is quite the opposite actually since OKW can deploy his T4 faster than any other faction. OKW isn't starving of anything.

Anyway, the only wish is to have from this patch is balance stuff, 6 months to build it is quite a lot and we are clearly in right to expect something working and bug free.

You are far to optimistic in my view.
But if "balance" for you as for some people on this forum means simply "nerf OKW" you will get what you want, I'm sure about it.
Not necessarely the OKW Panther's case here, but you might want to take into consideration that the fuel income has verry subtle effects that not everybody is aware about.
Cheap teching in fuel starvation conditions means that you will be able to produce a vehicle as fast as your opponent does. OKW is able to bring a vehicle in due time and when it's needed, no question about it.
BUT the effects of fuel starvation (DO NOT FORGET about the fact that the income cannot be boosted as every other faction can, without sacrificing AMO. Not Manpower, but AMO which is also important)is that you will not be able to produce to many of these vehicles along the game and quickly. Which means that IF YOU MAKE A MISTAKE YOU ARE USUALY TOASTED. Of course you can build directly panther which is more durable and can be kept alive easier. But how about the paper-armored vehicles from T3? Puma, AAsdkfz? And they are usually needed in early game. Can my puma fight with your 2 T34/76s? It can, if I am a better player than you and maybe will stay alive. If we are equal, you will probably lose an T34 if I am lucky, and I will lose my puma. You will replace your T34, I will not replace my puma. That's the way things go, and we have to stop denying this and call OKW "OPW" just because it has few better units. It's normal. It needs them.

So in the end please compare the 100% fuel income you receive as allied OR ostheer + 3 fuel caches which will boost your income, with 66% "OPW" receives along the game and see how many panthers can "OPW" build and how many shermans/EZ8s/jacksons OR T34s/SU-85s/T34_85s/IS2s you can bring.

OKW lower income is irrelevant because OKW has other handicaps like no need to upgrade Obers, cheap tech etc.

2 day ago I was playing 1v1, Way to Kharkov vs USF. He went for AA truck so he forced me to upgrade 2 schrecks before 10min.
If he would not went for AA truck he would be pushed back really badly, so he invested 60 fuel.

Then he made a Sherman at 16:30 and attacked really hard at my troops.
His surprise was just amazing when he saw my Panther around the corner at 17:39. Byt that time I had 3 volks with schrecks, 3 Jaegers, Kubel and Panther.

So... Starved faction?

Recently I saw 2v2 replays. 4 trucks converted and 3 KTs o.O

OKW lower income is irrelevant because OKW has other handicaps like no need to upgrade Obers, cheap tech etc.

2 day ago I was playing 1v1, Way to Kharkov vs USF. He went for AA truck so he forced me to upgrade 2 schrecks before 10min.
If he would not went for AA truck he would be pushed back really badly, so he invested 60 fuel.

Then he made a Sherman at 16:30 and attacked really hard at my troops.
His surprise was just amazing when he saw my Panther around the corner at 17:39. Byt that time I had 3 volks with schrecks, 3 Jaegers, Kubel and Panther.

So... Starved faction?

Recently I saw 2v2 replays. 4 trucks converted and 3 KTs o.O

I can tell many beautifull stories as well, such how easy was to play with Soviets and how I trashed down OKW players. What you say it's irelevant and can have thousands of causes. Like, for instance, you played against a noob.

You are far to optimistic in my view.
But if "balance" for you as for some people on this forum means simply "nerf OKW" you will get what you want, I'm sure about it.
Not necessarely the OKW Panther's case here, but you might want to take into consideration that the fuel income has verry subtle effects that not everybody is aware about.
Cheap teching in fuel starvation conditions means that you will be able to produce a vehicle as fast as your opponent does. OKW is able to bring a vehicle in due time and when it's needed, no question about it.
BUT the effects of fuel starvation (DO NOT FORGET about the fact that the income cannot be boosted as every other faction can, without sacrificing AMO. Not Manpower, but AMO which is also important)is that you will not be able to produce to many of these vehicles along the game and quickly. Which means that IF YOU MAKE A MISTAKE YOU ARE USUALY TOASTED. Of course you can build directly panther which is more durable and can be kept alive easier. But how about the paper-armored vehicles from T3? Puma, AAsdkfz? And they are usually needed in early game. Can my puma fight with your 2 T34/76s? It can, if I am a better player than you and maybe will stay alive. If we are equal, you will probably lose an T34 if I am lucky, and I will lose my puma. You will replace your T34, I will not replace my puma. That's the way things go, and we have to stop denying this and call OKW "OPW" just because it has few better units. It's normal. It needs them.

So in the end please compare the 100% fuel income you receive as allied OR ostheer + 3 fuel caches which will boost your income, with 66% "OPW" receives along the game and see how many panthers can "OPW" build and how many shermans/EZ8s/jacksons OR T34s/SU-85s/T34_85s/IS2s you can bring.

You must be talking about large team games.

Do me a favor. Load up cheatmod or something similar in a 1v1. Pick OKW and cap half the map. Allow USF or Soviets to cap half the map and then turn off the AI so they cap no more. Dont spend any fuel and wait for about 20 mins. Then stop the game note how much fuel you have and watch the replay and note the allies fuel.

You will see the difference of about 1 Medium tank.

You must be talking about large team games.

Do me a favor. Load up cheatmod or something similar in a 1v1. Pick OKW and cap half the map. Allow USF or Soviets to cap half the map and then turn off the AI so they cap no more. Dont spend any fuel and wait for about 20 mins. Then stop the game note how much fuel you have and watch the replay and note the allies fuel.

You will see the difference of about 1 Medium tank.

...which, of course, in 1v1 means nothing. Nothing at all.

...which, of course, in 1v1 means nothing. Nothing at all.

It actually doesn't because of abundance of AT OKW gets.
Unless you are rammed with something like KV-8 while you have nothing, OKW is more then capable to dispose of outnumbering armor, especially if its fragile USF armor.

It actually doesn't because of abundance of AT OKW gets.
Unless you are rammed with something like KV-8 while you have nothing, OKW is more then capable to dispose of outnumbering armor, especially if its fragile USF armor.

Great, so, in fact, the game is balanced and OKW is not OP.

It actually doesn't because of abundance of AT OKW gets.
Unless you are rammed with something like KV-8 while you have nothing, OKW is more then capable to dispose of outnumbering armor, especially if its fragile USF armor.

This. Shrekblobs can almost always net more than one Medium tank kill. This is why the fuel starved Justification combined with the cheapest teching in the game means very little in my book. May be true on the large cluster that is 4v4 but who cares people should only play that mode drunk anyway...