USF wishes for patch

Great, so, in fact, the game is balanced and OKW is not OP.

The power of the units relative to the actual fuel penalty isnt right. But I am sure you know that and are just being a smartass see Ober/Shrek into Panther as an example.

Great, so, in fact, the game is balanced and OKW is not OP.

"coal is black, therefore water is cold"
Gotta love one army fanboys way of thinking, the correlations they come up with, simply hilarious.

The power of the units relative to the actual fuel penalty isnt right. But I am sure you know that and are just being a smartass see Ober/Shrek into Panther as an example.

Not necessarely, I love seeig all these "OP" screams beating themselves with their own arguments. Something's wrong with OKW no doubt but it's not like you guys put it. Math fails sometimes in this game.
Did someone make a mode like this? Like increasing OKW tech costs, giving OKW 100% fuel while nerfing KT, walking stuka, Panzer 2, making Obers pay for upgrade, and increase volks' cost?
That would be an interesting experiment.

"coal is black, therefore water is cold"
Gotta love one army fanboys way of thinking, the correlations they come up with, simply hilarious.

The only thing hilarious here is your IQ.

Not necessarely, I love seeig all these "OP" screams beating themselves with their own arguments. Something's wrong with OKW no doubt but it's not like you guys put it. Math fails sometimes in this game.
Did someone make a mode like this? Like increasing OKW tech costs, giving OKW 100% fuel while nerfing KT, walking stuka, Panzer 2, making Obers pay for upgrade, and increase volks' cost?
That would be an interesting experiment.

I dont think they are that far off either TBH. But they are off in alot of areas. So alot of areas are called out as being off. A hit to a couple of the Areas is all that is needed. Either a nerf to Ober/Shreks so that they cant support a Panther/Luchs so well or a nerf to Panther/Luchs so that they cant support Ober/Shreks so well.

The synergy between those four units is too high or the timing is off or both. What counters Ober/Shreks gets hard countered by the Panther at least for USF. It would be easy to punish infantry with say a Dozer or a couple of HE shermans if the Panther didnt arrive at the same time or shortly afterwards.

Else Rifles would have an easier time dealing with Volks/Obers before the Panther/Luchs arrived.

KT I cant comment on as its a team game problem that I dont play. If I see a KT I lost long before that.

Not necessarely, I love seeig all these "OP" screams beating themselves with their own arguments. Something's wrong with OKW no doubt but it's not like you guys put it. Math fails sometimes in this game.
Did someone make a mode like this? Like increasing OKW tech costs, giving OKW 100% fuel while nerfing KT, walking stuka, Panzer 2, making Obers pay for upgrade, and increase volks' cost?
That would be an interesting experiment.

I think this is the first time we can agree

I would be for giving OKW 100% income with lowering initial amount of fuel, increasing teching cost, upgrade for Obers etc. but it's not that easy cause OKW has too many amazing units and 100% income would lead us to even more powerful army so it would have come with increasing cost of all unit or nerfing them.
66% income because late-war problems is not somehting Im buying.

What is wrong with OKW? Not much in the balance department, as far as 1v1 is concerned.
It is however annoying as fuck with glorious design decisions such as truck pushing, rewards blobbing and offers little incentive (or opportunity) for playing combined arms, a problem it shares with US, it is also exceedingly boring and repetitive, and the early tech decision has too much of an impact, ie. mechanised shuts down M20 play (and Soviet T1) while being itself negated by Cpt play, etc etc. To conclude my rant: I don't like playing it, and I don't like facing it either, but if you want to play Axis and dont fancy a thrashing, there is no avoiding it. Lets hope for OH becoming viable again.

OKW lower income is irrelevant because OKW has other handicaps like no need to upgrade Obers, cheap tech etc.

2 day ago I was playing 1v1, Way to Kharkov vs USF. He went for AA truck so he forced me to upgrade 2 schrecks before 10min.
If he would not went for AA truck he would be pushed back really badly, so he invested 60 fuel.

Then he made a Sherman at 16:30 and attacked really hard at my troops.
His surprise was just amazing when he saw my Panther around the corner at 17:39. Byt that time I had 3 volks with schrecks, 3 Jaegers, Kubel and Panther.

So... Starved faction?

Recently I saw 2v2 replays. 4 trucks converted and 3 KTs o.O

3 Volks, and 3 Jegar and a Kubel is only 5 fuel. And the Panther was his only tank when you could have a second T34 by that time.

Lower income is everything, it means you can't make tanks (so you can only spend MP on infantry), and you can't replace them either. A KT is a massive investment and it's loss almost always results in a loss for the OKW player.

Unless you are rammed with something like KV-8 while you have nothing, OKW is more then capable to dispose of outnumbering armor, especially if its fragile USF armor.

Have you ever crushed, kited, or done any other shrek negating things?

This. Shrekblobs can almost always net more than one Medium tank kill. This is why the fuel starved Justification combined with the cheapest teching in the game means very little in my book. May be true on the large cluster that is 4v4 but who cares people should only play that mode drunk anyway...

OKW teching isn't about making units, it's about supporting your army. Most people never make the IR HT, JPIV, or ISG, the Puma is very rare now thanks to everyone figuring out that you can counter Scout Car spam with the Flak HT.

The power of the units relative to the actual fuel penalty isnt right. But I am sure you know that and are just being a smartass see Ober/Shrek into Panther as an example.

OKW doesn't get better unit, OKW just gets more expensive units. Why should you pay 175 fuel while at an income disadvantage for a tank that can't do it's job?

I would be for giving OKW 100% income with lowering initial amount of fuel, increasing teching cost, upgrade for Obers etc. but it's not that easy cause OKW has too many amazing units and 100% income would lead us to even more powerful army so it would have come with increasing cost of all unit or nerfing them.

You would need to redesign the entire faction because converting your first HQ and being able to get Shreks ASAP is all OKW can really do when facing Scout Car rushes or early USF armor shenanigans. Again, OKW units aren't amazing, they are just more expensive.

To conclude my rant: I don't like playing it, and I don't like facing it either, but if you want to play Axis and dont fancy a thrashing, there is no avoiding it. Lets hope for OH becoming viable again.

Much truth in this except I like playing it, and I like facing it too . It's a faction for practical men. Not so much imagination, just a few powerfull units and combos. All in all, OKW it's not a faction. It's a playing style.
What do you have with Ostheer? A handicaped tiger? An untouchable Panther? Paper grenadiers? Broken HMG? Fireckracker Panzerwerfer? And so on. It's so beautifull playing with ostheer, so many tactics and combos leading to... what? Defeat? No, thanks. I like winning too, I'm not playing just to be there.

OKW units aren't amazing


they are just more expensive.

lol

lol

Unit effectiveness is derived from cost.

...which, of course, in 1v1 means nothing. Nothing at all.

I gotta say this is completely silly, even by fanboy standards. One medium tank means bunk because the fuel cost will not prevent USF from fielding it. In a 20 minute game USF will be bleeding MP so fast to stay on the field with vet 5 units that no amount of fuel is going to help you there. In addition, what Australian did not even ask you to do was convert resources, which you get as stock and would bring you back up to ally income, nullifying their advantage. You may say that you won't have resources for upgrades, but what upgrades? Shreks and minesweepers. Once those are upgraded everything is hunky doorey because you don't pay for upgrades as OKW.

Also don't forget that the advantage is one tank after 20 minutes. In the intervening time, you have no advantage because once you spend the MP the extra fuel does nothing. So enjoy your two M3 scout cars. I am sure they will win you the game.

Meanwhile in the USF camp I have to pay to just unlock bars or zooks, I have to pay to equip them. I have to pay to unlock tiers with pop cap. USF is good, very good in 1v1, but has no roll in larger games, where one additional tank is useless (if you get it). I am so tired of having useless Jackson, and sherman get alpha striked by shrek blob when they decide to spin in circles on a twig. While OKW has volks blob crushing around map and Shrwer HQ locking out sections of the map that I would like to flank on, since...fuel starved!

Unit effectiveness is derived from cost.

Almost every OKW unit is better(especially over time)and costs less or the same as its USF counterpart in one way or another..or in cases like Panther or KT, there is no counterpart.

Why do you think USF gets raped late game? It's not the late tanks. It's the stupid amount of cheap replaceable OP infantry that OKW has thanks to their LACK OF MP BLEED.

The only way to win as USF is contain and wipe the hordes of endless cheap infantry armed with heat seaking rocket launchers(with dirt cheap reinforce) and free LMG miniguns.
Or hope it's a map like Stalingrad.
And you have to do all this containment while being unable to back cap or surround thanks to schewy HQ. And med trucks that take a nuke to destroy with any sort of haste.

I gotta say this is completely silly, even by fanboy standards. One medium tank means bunk because the fuel cost will not prevent USF from fielding it. In a 20 minute game USF will be bleeding MP so fast to stay on the field with vet 5 units that no amount of fuel is going to help you there.

True that.
As USF you always have abundance of fuel and no menpower to use that fuel.

Almost every OKW unit is better(especially over time)and costs less or the same as its USF counterpart in one way or another..or in cases like Panther or KT, there is no counterpart.

Why do you think USF gets raped late game? It's not the late tanks. It's the stupid amount of cheap replaceable OP infantry that OKW has thanks to their LACK OF MP BLEED.

The only way to win as USF is contain and wipe the hordes of endless cheap infantry armed with heat seaking rocket launchers(with dirt cheap reinforce) and free LMG miniguns.
Or hope it's a map like Stalingrad.
And you have to do all this containment while being unable to back cap or surround thanks to schewy HQ. And med trucks that take a nuke to destroy with any sort of haste.

Except there isn't a single OKW tank that cost's the same or less than it's USF counterpart while being better. The P2 is 130 fuel, 169 fuel if you count the income reduction. The AA HT isn't objectively better than the USF AA HT, the Puma is 70 fuel and dies to the first medium tank and can't hurt infantry, and the Stuka doesn't have any US analogue to compare it to.

OKW doesn't have tanks.

And the issue with cheap replaceable infantry? Yeah thanks to the fact OKW can't spend it's MP on anything but infantry thanks to having zero support weapons and no tanks to make means that you can either let it go to waste or spend it on more infantry.

Volks shouldn't be an issue for your riflemen at all, and Obers do need to be toned down, but are still not stupid hard to get rid of as a 4 man squad when you have fun stuff like the Scott. Or HE shells.

As USF you always have abundance of fuel and no menpower to use that fuel.

Which is exactly the reverse of OKW's problem.

1The puma can absoulutely give a fast Sherman fits and reduce its impact. if it's supported with shrieks and micro'do
The panzer 2 is 50 fuel. Please ffs stfu about the fuel income. The Stuart is 70 and sucks in comparison and impact. And comes in a useless tier compared to OKW counterpart.
The Stuka is completely better than anything USF has in regards to arty.

The P4 battlegroup is cheaper than two A3 Sherman's AFAIK at 210 fuel

The easy 8 loses to Panther
Rifles will bleed against fusiliers,volks, and the only infantry that's balanced in OKW is sturmpioneers.

You have rakentens and mg34 to spend MP on, but why when shrieks and overs exist.

My HE Sherman will get one shot off on your obers before a response volley of shrieks nails it for half its health,and a panther chases and finishes said Sherman. Okw is vulnerable at certain moments but cheap shrieks and volks etc allow them to survive these lapses of weakness.

Volks will outnumber, out scale, and stomp rifles after the first 5 mins. Again a forward med truck completely swings this in OKW favor, yet again.

the Puma is 70 fuel and dies to the first medium tank and can't hurt infantry

Puma will reliably kill most mediums on a 1 on 1 engagement, Just don't use it vs Jackson's

Puma will reliably kill most mediums on a 1 on 1 engagement, Just don't use it vs Jackson's

Siberian(I think, not 100% sure) recently killed Jackson frontally with vet3 Ost puma

Puma will reliably kill most mediums on a 1 on 1 engagement, Just don't use it vs Jackson's

If the tanks at shooting at their max ranges and the medium in question just sits there then yes. But the Puma's effectiveness is reduced later on due to the Captain tier hard countering it. It's just not worth making when the flak HT does the same thing but better.

1The puma can absoulutely give a fast Sherman fits and reduce its impact. if it's supported with shrieks and micro'do
The panzer 2 is 50 fuel. Please ffs stfu about the fuel income. The Stuart is 70 and sucks in comparison and impact. And comes in a useless tier compared to OKW counterpart.
The Stuka is completely better than anything USF has in regards to arty.

The Puma can help deal with medium armor, but it's not worth 70 fuel to help deal with enemy mediums when you can get other stuff to do that better for lesser cost.

The P2 is 50+80, and the fuel income means everything because it reduces the ability for you to make another tank after you get that P2, that's 50 fuel that could have gone towards a Panther or making another truck.

The Stuart does suck ass, but that's totally independent of the P2 being good. The Stuart needs a buff, the P2 doesn't need a nerf. Captain and the Schwer are not at all comparable, the captain is the USF analogue to the Mechanized HQ.

BG HQ/LT -> T1
Mechanized HQ/CpT -> T2
Schwer/Major -> T3

The Stuka is better because USF doesn't have on map artillery other than the Priest, which is a howitzer and thus not comparable to the Stuka. You can also pop cap abuse with the Priest, which you can't do with the Stuka.

The P4 battlegroup is cheaper than two A3 Sherman's AFAIK at 210 fuel

So? Nobody uses the P4 battle group because nobody wants to pay for slightly better T34's at 9 CP when you could get a Command Panther or save for a KT.

The easy 8 loses to Panther

I would hope so! Because the Panther costs more.

Rifles will bleed against fusiliers,volks, and the only infantry that's balanced in OKW is sturmpioneers.

Except Rifles have higher DPS than both of those infantry units, and Fuss cost more than Rifles.

How are Sturms the only balanced infantry in OKW?, I mean they are the only one that makes sense since the OKW used mostly automatic weaponry and whatnot but we aren't exactly shooting for realism here. Obers are stupid, but Fallsch are to expensive/fragile and JLI are just fine.

You have rakentens and mg34 to spend MP on, but why when shrieks and overs exist.

Except the Rackaten is garbage and the MG34 is like a 42 but has less suppression, I do use it but it's not all reliable while being very fragile.

My HE Sherman will get one shot off on your obers before a response volley of shrieks nails it for half its health,and a panther chases and finishes said Sherman. Okw is vulnerable at certain moments but cheap shrieks and volks etc allow them to survive these lapses of weakness.

Except your Sherman has longer range than the Volks do, and the Scott can easily out range any AT the OKW player has. OKW is very vulnerable to crushing and other kiting/movement mechanics due to lack of a snare.

Volks will outnumber, out scale, and stomp rifles after the first 5 mins. Again a forward med truck completely swings this in OKW favor, yet again.

Except Volks don't outperform any allied infantry till Vet 3, at which point they only outperform conscripts in AI power. The power of Volks is in the shrek, and their durability, they have quite poor anti infantry performance compared to rifles who can also get AI upgrades.

If your rifles are getting stomped in the first 5 minutes then jesus christ I don't know what to say. Rifles have 12 more DPS than Volks.

Siberian(I think, not 100% sure) recently killed Jackson frontally with vet3 Ost puma

Because he caught the Jackson after it just fired, so the Puma just stun shotted and killed the Jackson. If he Jackson hadn't shot at something else it could have forced the Puma off.