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OKW manpower penalty?

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17 Apr 2015, 13:21 PM
#201
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8



The KT and JT can't be spammed because they both take up a huge amount of population capacity. 2 KT's is 48 pop cap, that's half your bloody popcap!

So IS-2 and Tigers can be (according to your previous posts)spammed despite huge pop they take, but KT which takes exactly the same can't?
I don't know who your dealer is, but he sells some quality shit permanently altering perception depending on where you look.

And OKW of all the factions has the highest popcap: Engineers, vehicles, light vehicles, and infantry. The issue is you won't be building normally anything but 1 of those things. And population capacity doesn't matter anyway if your not making anything new because you don't have the fuel or need to do so because the option is not open to you.

There is so much wrong in that statement that it makes a brain cry.
OKW population to resource costs are exactly the same as for any other army, nothing is better or worse for them in this regard and if anything, the cost effectiveness of vet5 infantry is completely neglected when calculating OKW pop cost for infantry as its the same as for normal vet3 inf. I don't think I need to do more explanations here, a monkey would get the point.



Those vehicles are often better because they are more expensive. The JPIV is the least mobile TD in the game barring the super's, the Flak HT is worse than the American one, and the Puma much like you described with USF's vehicles has to be microed a lot to stick around without dying.

Thats some quality fact twisting.
JP4 might be least mobile medium TD, but it doesn't prevent it to be almost equal in that regard to any other TD, comparing it to SU-85, its actually much more mobile because its extended sight doesn't slow it down and it being on the move doesn't affect accuracy as much as it does SU-85. Mobility is certainly not a disadvantage at all compared to all other non super heavy TDs.

AA HT USF and OKW one have different roles when fighting ground targets, there is also considerable cost difference so I don't know why you are saying that 251 AA performs worse then M15 when it costs 50% less, and why won't you include soviet Quad which performs as worst of all and comes last to the field.



I was floating MP because I could afford literally 1 Panther. Then I was at population cap, jesus christ dude did you not watch the replay? When you did your suicide charge I just got my Jadgtiger, until then I had 1 Panther facing your 2 KV8's and 2 IS2's.

You was floating MP because there was ZERO attrition pressure to you, your infantry squads did not lost even a comparable amount of models because of sheer firepower of your blob, which led you to you bleeding your opponent while he was unable to bleed you-THAT is the reason for float, nothing else.

How do you think OKW can have it's MP float fixed? Because if you reduce the income OKW early game won't work.

Add +1 pop to all infantry units. There, fixed and popcap reflects superiority of vetted units.
If Relic was fine with adding additional pop cost for grens just because they had LMG advantage, then there is no reason the same can not be done for OKW for superior weapon upgrades and 2 additional vet levels.

Give OKW the tools to stop float that every other faction has. If you want to raises prices and effectiveness because of that; fine.

That tool is:
a) increasing population costs of infantry so the cost effectiveness ratio to the popcap the unit takes is equalized to other three armies instead of inflated by vet5 system, which directly inflates menpower and therefore creates a float directly
b) nerf cost effectiveness of units, which would have to bring OKW units to the level of other vet3 squads.

Obviously a) should be the way to go as it affects economy and cost efficiency without creating possible disastrous domino effect for balance.

But what can I know at the end, I'm just a fucking game designer.
17 Apr 2015, 13:21 PM
#202
avatar of Jorad

Posts: 209



Soviets have cheap well preforming units, why do they not float MP? Shocks are good, guards are good, conscripts are good, Penals are good.

It might be; because they have lots of tools at their disposal to spend their MP on things other than just more infantry. Soviets have a plethora of support weapons and tanks they can acquire, OKW not so much.



What would be the issue with the KT being a thing with 100% fuel income, because it would still be the most expensive tank in the game by a large margin as in 150 fuel more than an IS2. People already use lots of things other than the KT, and or more combined forces.

More options for OKW = more chesse as OKW.
You said so yourself, "OKW has no combined arms, thus Infranty spam"
17 Apr 2015, 13:27 PM
#203
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Apr 2015, 13:21 PMJorad

More options for OKW = more chesse as OKW.
You said so yourself, "OKW has no combined arms, thus Infranty spam"


Less options is more cheese, since it means less legitimate strats are open to you.
17 Apr 2015, 13:31 PM
#204
avatar of Jorad

Posts: 209



Less options is more cheese, since it means less legitimate strats are open to you.

What about OKW combined Arms?
17 Apr 2015, 14:34 PM
#205
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Apr 2015, 13:31 PMJorad

What about OKW combined Arms?


Not actually possible with the current unit list OKW has. Unless your talking tank with infantry, which is currently also hard to achieve because of the 66% fuel income.

So IS-2 and Tigers can be (according to your previous posts)spammed despite huge pop they take, but KT which takes exactly the same can't?
I don't know who your dealer is, but he sells some quality shit permanently altering perception depending on where you look.


The KT costs 150 fuel more than the IS-2 and Tiger, and that's with full fuel income not 66% fuel income.

There is so much wrong in that statement that it makes a brain cry.
OKW population to resource costs are exactly the same as for any other army, nothing is better or worse for them in this regard and if anything, the cost effectiveness of vet5 infantry is completely neglected when calculating OKW pop cost for infantry as its the same as for normal vet3 inf. I don't think I need to do more explanations here, a monkey would get the point.


OKW has the highest popcap infantry in the game, and highest pop cap vehicles in the game. The only exception to this rule is Volks.

Thats some quality fact twisting.
JP4 might be least mobile medium TD, but it doesn't prevent it to be almost equal in that regard to any other TD, comparing it to SU-85, its actually much more mobile because its extended sight doesn't slow it down and it being on the move doesn't affect accuracy as much as it does SU-85. Mobility is certainly not a disadvantage at all compared to all other non super heavy TDs.


The JPIV has the mobility of a Katyusha, it's the JPIV's greatest disadvantage and makes it terrible on maps with plentiful flanking opportunities. The unit itself is great, don't get me wrong, but it's got weakness's just like the SU-85 and Jackson do.

AA HT USF and OKW one have different roles when fighting ground targets, there is also considerable cost difference so I don't know why you are saying that 251 AA performs worse then M15 when it costs 50% less, and why won't you include soviet Quad which performs as worst of all and comes last to the field.


The OKW AA HT costs 55 fuel unadjusted if T2 is your first HQ. If you adjust it's cost then it's 20 fuel more than the USF AA HT in cost. And no they do not have different rolls, they are both AA HT's that suppress infantry. Except the USF AA HT is a million times more mobile and comes with self repairing.

The M5 HT is a reinforcement and transport unit that can also double as AA, but yes the Quad mount sucks and that's bad.

You was floating MP because there was ZERO attrition pressure to you, your infantry squads did not lost even a comparable amount of models because of sheer firepower of your blob, which led you to you bleeding your opponent while he was unable to bleed you-THAT is the reason for float, nothing else.


I lost several units and was losing models just like he was, but while Oz was getting IS2's and KV8's all I could afford was a single humble Panther.

Add +1 pop to all infantry units. There, fixed and popcap reflects superiority of vetted units.
If Relic was fine with adding additional pop cost for grens just because they had LMG advantage, then there is no reason the same can not be done for OKW for superior weapon upgrades and 2 additional vet levels.


Which would solve nothing, because OKW already takes up a significant amount of popcap with it's infantry and still floats MP.

But what can I know at the end, I'm just a fucking game designer.


And I'm an Industrial Engineer. When I'm analyzing a system to fix it and reduce inefficiency I look at what other systems use to fix things and reduce management issues instead of addressing my system in a vacuum.

Point 1: OKW Floats MP
Point 2: Other factions do not float MP
Point 3: OKW does not have the same tools as other factions
Point 4: Therefore the issue with OKW floating MP is due to lack of tools
17 Apr 2015, 14:52 PM
#206
avatar of Zyllen

Posts: 770

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Apr 2015, 12:35 PMJorad


your post brings nothing here


Mature


-Better vehicles Flak Halftrack, Puma, Luchs, Jagdpanzer IV, Stuka. The problem is that "efectivnes" of units is determined by "it kills instantly" thus good, "it kills slowly" thus bad.



The usf have FAR better variants. the m10 right now blows the puma right out of the water when it comes to cost efficiency . the jp4 trades durability for firepower and mobility. and the luchs still loses to the t-70 despite being a very good infantry killer. The so called more cost effective units is really not showing


-And that is why USF (with all its problems) is the best designed faction, because they need their vehicles to survive the mid game other faction dont and that is BS.


No technically they only need tanks for AT. and the jackson is awesome AT.


-Dont understand you statement


Being a punching bag doesnt win you games. damage does.
17 Apr 2015, 15:41 PM
#207
avatar of QueenRatchet123

Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2

Permanently Banned


Point 1: OKW Floats MP
Point 2: Other factions do not float MP
Point 3: OKW does not have the same tools as other factions
Point 4: Therefore the issue with OKW floating MP is due to lack of tools


Remove vet 5

Remove trucks

Nurf every OKW unit besides volks

Increase the price of teching and every vehicle they have. Good luck getting to ur panther. (AA HT would need a price increase to 60 fuel, for how effective it is)

Replace Obers with fussliers and make obers doctrinal. (since u have all the "options" that other factions have, u dont need terminators) No other faction has non-doc infantry that can compare to obers.

Remove KT from HQ and put it in Elite armor

Agree to all these, then u can have the "Options" that other factions have.

The best thing u could hope for is that OKW gets a commander equivalent to sov industry with a huge mp penalty.

USF can get a pershing commander, you know, because they lack the heavy tank "option" that every other faction has the luxury of having. :megusta:
17 Apr 2015, 15:57 PM
#208
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1



Remove vet 5

Remove trucks

Nurf every OKW unit besides volks

Increase the price of teching and every vehicle they have. Good luck getting to ur panther. (AA HT would need a price increase to 60 fuel, for how effective it is)

Replace Obers with fussliers and make obers doctrinal. (since u have all the "options" that other factions have, u dont need terminators) No other faction has non-doc infantry that can compare to obers.

Remove KT from HQ and put it in Elite armor

Agree to all these, then u can have the "Options" that other factions have.

The best thing u could hope for is that OKW gets a commander equivalent to sov industry with a huge mp penalty.

USF can get a pershing commander, you know, because they lack the heavy tank "option" that every other faction has the luxury of having. :megusta:


Do you think Ostheer, USF, and Soviets are all exactly the same? Because they all have adequate tools to burn off extra MP while each is unique in it's faction design.

lol tho you seriously think all OKW infantry is superior to allied infantry. A Queen charge post indeed. I bet next you will tell me conscripts are shit and rifles are terrible.
17 Apr 2015, 15:57 PM
#209
avatar of Jorad

Posts: 209

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Apr 2015, 14:52 PMZyllen


Mature




The usf have FAR better variants. the m10 right now blows the puma right out of the water when it comes to cost efficiency . the jp4 trades durability for firepower and mobility. and the luchs still loses to the t-70 despite being a very good infantry killer. The so called more cost effective units is really not showing



No technically they only need tanks for AT. and the jackson is awesome AT.



Being a punching bag doesnt win you games. damage does.

What? What? What? write it plain and simple for me
17 Apr 2015, 15:58 PM
#210
avatar of Jorad

Posts: 209

If OKW Combined arms in non existent and you are forced to blob with OKW because of that and only tank is the Panther/KT why do people play OKW not Ostheer?
17 Apr 2015, 16:00 PM
#211
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Apr 2015, 15:58 PMJorad
If OKW Combined arms in non existent and you are forced to blob with OKW because of that and only tank is the Panther/KT why do people play OKW not Ostheer?


People play both. Almost every AT will have a equal number of Ostheer and OKW players.
17 Apr 2015, 16:03 PM
#212
avatar of Zyllen

Posts: 770

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Apr 2015, 15:57 PMJorad

What? What? What? write it plain and simple for me


Sry if you cannot understand this then talking to you is a waste of time.
17 Apr 2015, 16:05 PM
#213
avatar of QueenRatchet123

Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2

Permanently Banned

I bet next you will tell me conscripts are shit and rifles are terrible.


After 20 minutes Cons are just there to screen for AT nades. Rifles get shredded by everything, LMG grens, PGrens ( situational, but they most likely will win), vet 5 volks will beat vet 3 rifles, every fucking tank at that stage will just force stock allied infantry to retreat from their intended counters. You know, the thing that shrek'd volks negate.

I bet the next thing u will tell me is that USF lategame is on par with OKW's late game...

You want to not float mp as OKW. thats fine, at vet4+ increase the reinforce cost of every infantry unit

Also no vet 5 until all tech is researched. That will force u to spend more mp on tech instead of just going straight for panther
17 Apr 2015, 16:19 PM
#214
avatar of Jorad

Posts: 209



People play both. Almost every AT will have a equal number of Ostheer and OKW players.

Dodging the question.
Why are you playing OKW?
17 Apr 2015, 16:19 PM
#215
avatar of Jorad

Posts: 209

jump backJump back to quoted post17 Apr 2015, 16:03 PMZyllen


Sry if you cannot understand this then talking to you is a waste of time.

Talking to you is also a waste of time.
17 Apr 2015, 17:23 PM
#216
avatar of Alexzandvar

Posts: 4951 | Subs: 1



After 20 minutes Cons are just there to screen for AT nades. Rifles get shredded by everything, LMG grens, PGrens ( situational, but they most likely will win), vet 5 volks will beat vet 3 rifles, every fucking tank at that stage will just force stock allied infantry to retreat from their intended counters. You know, the thing that shrek'd volks negate.

I bet the next thing u will tell me is that USF lategame is on par with OKW's late game...

You want to not float mp as OKW. thats fine, at vet4+ increase the reinforce cost of every infantry unit

Also no vet 5 until all tech is researched. That will force u to spend more mp on tech instead of just going straight for panther


Cons can reinforce squads on the field, have cheap grenades, and high squad survivability. They are a close ranged unit.

Rifles with no upgrades get shredded by LMG grens much like Grens with no upgrades get shredded by rifles and simply lol at saying Pgrens are standard for shredding rifles.

Vet 5 Volks with the new accuracy for Vet 5 now lose to Vet 3 rifles, especially in close range, every tank at that stage will force Axis stock infantry to retreat to because kitting shreks isn't hard also crushing.

USF late game is fine now that the Jackson has a very high chance to penetrate anything it's shooting at. Unless your opponent has a Jadgtiger you are perfectly able to counter everything he has with USF stock units. And more reinforcement cost at higher vet levels wouldn't work as it intentionally goes against the design for how veterancy works.


Dodging the question.
Why are you playing OKW?


Uh, because I play every faction?
17 Apr 2015, 17:28 PM
#217
avatar of Zyllen

Posts: 770



After 20 minutes Cons are just there to screen for AT nades. Rifles get shredded by everything, LMG grens, PGrens ( situational, but they most likely will win), vet 5 volks will beat vet 3 rifles, every fucking tank at that stage will just force stock allied infantry to retreat from their intended counters. You know, the thing that shrek'd volks negate.

I bet the next thing u will tell me is that USF lategame is on par with OKW's late game...

You want to not float mp as OKW. thats fine, at vet4+ increase the reinforce cost of every infantry unit

Also no vet 5 until all tech is researched. That will force u to spend more mp on tech instead of just going straight for panther


Holy over exaggerating batman ! grens with lmg's do have an advantage in long range combat but rifles definitely do not get shredded.
17 Apr 2015, 17:37 PM
#218
avatar of ElSlayer

Posts: 1605 | Subs: 1




No, you buy your initial squads and if you didn't take any serious losses during engagement you start floating MP waiting for tanks. If you're smart and take your fights wisely you can hold on to your side of the map and using Flack truck sit tight until tanks arrive without any other spending. OKW early game ahsn't been affected by last patch if I remember correctly.
If you will be able to use this outstanding manpower to convert it into other resources you will be able to field Panther in like 10th minute of the game which is unbalanced as f'''k.

Works for every other faction.
17 Apr 2015, 17:43 PM
#219
avatar of Jorad

Posts: 209



Uh, because I play every faction?


From the stats only 2. Ok so why do you like OKW?
17 Apr 2015, 17:48 PM
#220
avatar of QueenRatchet123

Posts: 2280 | Subs: 2

Permanently Banned


Cons can reinforce squads on the field, have cheap grenades, and high squad survivability. They are a close ranged unit.

Rifles with no upgrades get shredded by LMG grens much like Grens with no upgrades get shredded by rifles and simply lol at saying Pgrens are standard for shredding rifles.

Vet 5 Volks with the new accuracy for Vet 5 now lose to Vet 3 rifles, especially in close range, every tank at that stage will force Axis stock infantry to retreat to because kitting shreks isn't hard also crushing.

USF late game is fine now that the Jackson has a very high chance to penetrate anything it's shooting at. Unless your opponent has a Jadgtiger you are perfectly able to counter everything he has with USF stock units. And more reinforcement cost at higher vet levels wouldn't work as it intentionally goes against the design for how veterancy works.




Everything in this post is a lie

Not wasting my time on a blatant liar

Guess ill have to re-block u
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