OKW manpower penalty?

It is working as planned, the early game doesn't need to be weaker. I fail to see how making OKW impossible to play fixes any issues.

From replays, streams and my own experience I know that it is quite common for okw to float manpower in late early game and early mid game just to build obers asap when flaktruck is set up. And even while floating okw players don't seem to struggle against allies.

That basically means two things: That okw can live without that spare manpower and that taking it will make the arrival of obers later. Both are good for the ballance.

From replays, streams and my own experience I know that it is quite common for okw to float manpower in late early game and early mid game just to build obers asap when flaktruck is set up. And even while floating okw players don't seem to struggle against allies.

That basically means two things: That okw can live without that spare manpower and that taking it will make the arrival of obers later. Both are good for the ballance.

Against a good player you will always need to be burning MP to keep up against the allied infantry horde. If you are god tier at micro I can see you getting away with allowing a massive float, but in your first few engagements as OKW your almost always at a disadvantage due to Volks being worst baseline infantry in the game.

If MP income was nerfed, Volks/Sturms/and the Kubel would need to be better to compensate.

Against a good player you will always need to be burning MP to keep up against the allied infantry horde. If you are god tier at micro I can see you getting away with allowing a massive float, but in your first few engagements as OKW your almost always at a disadvantage due to Volks being worst baseline infantry in the game.

If MP income was nerfed, Volks/Sturms/and the Kubel would need to be better to compensate.

Sure there are players that you cannot beat without using that spare mp. They are simply better. That goes the same with me and every other player, you cannot beat everyone and if you can beat better player there is sth wrong with ballance. And that's the case here.

I understand what you mean about super early game, it may became unplayable after the change. Thats why I suggested increase in upkeep cost of okw squads. That way the change will not affect okw early on but the effect will take the float (or spam) out of them later on.

That solution is better than compensation with the strenght of sturms and volks as such making them stronger will also make them even stronger with vet 5.

Volks low cost, high vet bonuses and the ready availability of panzershrecks combine to cause the big problem with the faction. Combine this with MG's being in a not-so-good place and we end up with the blob meta.

Buff raketen, nerf shrek. Toning down vet bonuses on volks might be good too. If we make shreks less accurate, we could theoretically replace one of the "recieved accuracy" buffs on volks vet with a buff taht counteracts the shrek nerf - high vet volks are as accurate with them as 0 vet ones are now, for instance. But with less matrix-style bullet dodging nonsense.

Obers should be cheaper mp-wise but require munitions upgrade for LMG34. Every LMG34 is a shrek you don't get, and vice versa. Thus, you are encouraged to diversify your builds with either Raketens or alternative anti-infantry/anti-tank vehicles.

If any Fraction got a manpower reduction, sniper abuse would make it unplayable.

Obers need to be reworked, their existence is cancer to this game, the only way to deal with the Obers efficently are snipers, which costs 40 mp less yet somehow dosn't get a four man squad.

Volks low cost, high vet bonuses and the ready availability of panzershrecks combine to cause the big problem with the faction. Combine this with MG's being in a not-so-good place and we end up with the blob meta.

Buff raketen, nerf shrek. Toning down vet bonuses on volks might be good too. If we make shreks less accurate, we could theoretically replace one of the "recieved accuracy" buffs on volks vet with a buff taht counteracts the shrek nerf - high vet volks are as accurate with them as 0 vet ones are now, for instance. But with less matrix-style bullet dodging nonsense.

Obers should be cheaper mp-wise but require munitions upgrade for LMG34. Every LMG34 is a shrek you don't get, and vice versa. Thus, you are encouraged to diversify your builds with either Raketens or alternative anti-infantry/anti-tank vehicles.

There isn't going to be any diversity of tanks for OKW because they either don't exist or are to expensive.

T1 gets Raketenwerfer
T2 gets JPIV
T3 gets Puma
T4 gets Panther

The current meta has everyone beelining for Panther. If the Pzshreks weren't so powerful, and OKW had to choose between lots of shreks or lots of LMG34s, players are encouraged to diversify by going for some other vehicles to cover one of these two weaknesses - either dedicated anti-inf vehicles, or dedicated anti-vech vechiles. If they don't, they will be unusually vulnerable in the mid-game, particularly to medium tanks.

For AT they might choose the manpower-only Raketen (which needs a buff currently because it's a bit crappy, but not a MAJOR buff), but regardless of what they do we should be seeing more interesting builds. Currently, the Volks+Ober spam (not necessarily blobbing, but it certainly is conducive to blobbing) is extremely effective, and also extremely boring to see it happen in almost every game. Stalling for end-game super units is a shitty boring tactic and it would be nice to see it become more popular and viable to invest in multiple mid-game units rather than saving for Tigers / IS2s / Panthers / lol Americans.

It's effective, because that is how the faction was designed. The Raketen is just ???, Idk what relic was thinking there. But the Puma and to a much greater extent the JPIV will delay your teching if you get them which can be a killer against an aggressive opponent.

Different story same conclusion, reduce the fuel cost on OKW vehicles across the board and increase the MP cost. That way you could get a Puma and not fuck your teching, but you couldn't spam other shit and get a Puma. Same for JPIV, and Panther.

The Raketen is just ???,

id take the reketen over the 57mm every day

Comes at t0

gets increased cone and rate of fire in buildings.

Also can retreat.

The Raketen is pretty damn useful if you put it in a building and forget about it

It will rarely kill anything by itself but it will contribute to a fight going on around it, and it's a handy picket unit especially when enemy infantry/mortars will often try to attack it and clear it out rather than push on and ignore it.



Does anyone else find it interesting that Ostheer has PAK-43 and on-map howitzers but rarely if ever has the MP or the situation to build them?

Whilst on the other hand we see more PAK-43s built by OKW than ever by Ostheer?

I can't help thinking OKW with an on-map artillery piece would be very interesting

Every single game mode has the same balance issues, except they escalate in significance as the game mode goes higher.

Oh, do they?
Then applying 4v4 logic to 1v1, we need to greatly nerf OKW, greatly buff USF, buff a bit soviets and ost is perfectly fine faction with no problems at all and since you understand that, then I suppose you act as main OKW apologist exclusively for sports since following your logic, even you can't be that dumb to believe OKW is fine.

Some things will be the same across 1v1 against 4v4

Others are not


For example 4v4 sees more map control, more caches and more stuff to be salvaged, as such late game where Axis do better comes sooner and represents a bigger part of the game - especially as games tend to be longer. It also allows OKW to off-set their resource penalty by having access to caches

It also can mean that more bases are covered through Commander Abilities and tech choices - so 2 Soviets can have all 4 tiers between them.

And "random v arranged team" is another matter entirely


None of that means that balance shouldn't start in 1v1 and if 1v1 gets resolved then many of the issues that affect 4v4 will also be resolved, but 4v4 will still have things unique to it.


All that said, looking at where we have been:

http://www.coh2.org/topic/27284/remember-when

The game was in a very good state prior to WFA coming out and considering how long that took relative to where we are now and considering that relic lost their lead balance and that doing 4 factions is more than twice as hard as doing 2 I am content with the situation right now


A lot of balance "discussion" is L2P and QQ anyway and I don't take it very seriously

See above.


Claiming 4v4 balance is almost the same as 1v1 is just blunt stupid. All one need to do to see it is play few 1v1 AFTER ladder placement. That's why I made a disclaimer 1v1 only. Sure units are the same but the whole context is different. Even how you approach the map without buddy cover your arse is different.

In 1v1 OKW early game is really strong with Volks being your core, SP being your flanking unit and DMG dealer and Kubel being your ultra mobile suppression platform. This allows you to transition into early Luchs or Obers into Panther. Or open with some Pumas or ISG and then into Panther and Obers.

I played OKW early release when the were this very defensive early game faction that required micro and was very rewarding to play. Every Shreck counted, you were forced to utilise units like Puma or ISG and be careful not to over stretch your army. Now I can spam 4 Volks, 2 Obers and still float MP. For me that's an indication something is wrong.
Recent game I had a guy doing standard Volks spam opening, transitioning into Luchs. I got my T34 out almost at the same time but o couldn't use it because every time it was forced to retreat due to multiple shreck salvos. When I wanted to engage his Volks with infantry his Luchs was shredding my Cons from behind the lines, any T34 flank was imidietaly countered by Shrek salvos, all that while my mortars were constantly bleeding him out.Vet2 at 12 minutes mark. ZiS didn't work cos you need 3 shoots to deal with Luchs and SP repair is crazy so its back in action after few minutes.
I don't think you can beat equal skilled OKW player. I can beat a bad one, no at all but against one that's the same level you have no chance.

My solution is to allow OJW to remain its unique flavour of being this elite army (similar to Space Marines from DoW2) with few but powerful units otherwise they have to be redone. MP bleed can be adjusted so OKW won't be crippled.

In 1v1 OKW early game is really strong with Volks being your core, SP being your flanking unit and DMG dealer and Kubel being your ultra mobile suppression platform. This allows you to transition into early Luchs or Obers into Panther. Or open with some Pumas or ISG and then into Panther and Obers.

I played OKW early release when the were this very defensive early game faction that required micro and was very rewarding to play. Every Shreck counted, you were forced to utilise units like Puma or ISG and be careful not to over stretch your army. Now I can spam 4 Volks, 2 Obers and still float MP. For me that's

Just telling you that OKW hardly changed from when they were released, the munition was first changed from 66 % to 100 % and then back to 80 %. Sturmpios were changed from a mid ranged squad into a close combat squad and Kübel got overbuffed and then nerfed again.

I personally liked okw play in the alpha more, it was a faction where your focus was to deny map control of your enemy while you hold your 3 important territories. That was a really interesting way to play and it's sad that relic made okw like the other 3 factions instead of tweaking their original design.

id take the reketen over the 57mm every day

Comes at t0

gets increased cone and rate of fire in buildings.

Also can retreat.

I wouldn't. 57mm it's an AT gun. Raketen it's a mockery.

I wouldn't. 57mm it's an AT gun. Raketen it's a mockery.

And still a way better penetration than 57mm. Raketens are amazing. And even if enemy is getting close, you can retreat and save the crew. On maps with buildings it can do wonders.

And still a way better penetration than 57mm. Raketens are amazing. And even if enemy is getting close, you can retreat and save the crew. On maps with buildings it can do wonders.

Used it many times, in buildings and outside buildings and I still prefere any other AT gun instead. Really. Except for that little russian shit from urban defense tactics. So yeah, there is worst...

Just telling you that OKW hardly changed from when they were released, the munition was first changed from 66 % to 100 % and then back to 80 %. Sturmpios were changed from a mid ranged squad into a close combat squad and Kübel got overbuffed and then nerfed again.

I personally liked okw play in the alpha more, it was a faction where your focus was to deny map control of your enemy while you hold your 3 important territories. That was a really interesting way to play and it's sad that relic made okw like the other 3 factions instead of tweaking their original design.

I disagree. Having 66% munition back then could cost you a game if you were unlucky and lost your only Shrek early game, Kubel was bad, then was over buffed and then it was nerfed again but never to it's original stage. Today's Kubel is a much better unit then its first iteration. These days you can easily sustain using only Volks as your AT back then you had to use Pumas, Rocketens and mines to be able to survive early game. On the other hand Vet5 Puma was a pleasure to play with.

maybe okw should have mp income tied to mapcontrol instead while trucks can lockdown normal strat points again

I disagree. Having 66% munition back then could cost you a game if you were unlucky and lost your only Shrek early game, Kubel was bad, then was over buffed and then it was nerfed again but never to it's original stage. Today's Kubel is a much better unit then its first iteration. These days you can easily sustain using only Volks as your AT back then you had to use Pumas, Rocketens and mines to be able to survive early game. On the other hand Vet5 Puma was a pleasure to play with.

Yes but still a more balanced OKW could use a 66% fuel income again, with a raketen buff and a mine cost decrease. This will not tone down OKW early game power but will increase the difficulty of micro, will encourage combined arms concept and will favor some strategic thinking. Fact is even like that, the game searches percentage will still greatly favor axis.