Ostheer vs usf matchup

Can you please eleborate, the U.S. can only make RE, rifles, LT and captain which IMO are almost all the same role except RE. Werh got 4 units in t1, which you can acces to instantly with 4 units wich have a clear thought out role.

Sniper is beyond useless and the MG42 is a gamble on many maps due to fragility. Rifles out preform grens at all ranges except max, and a rifle blob can easily kill an MG42 before being suppressed.

Not saying USF is the model of choice, but the units it's forced to use out preform the Ostheer ones.

Sniper is beyond useless and the MG42 is a gamble on many maps due to fragility. Rifles out preform grens at all ranges except max, and a rifle blob can easily kill an MG42 before being suppressed.

Not saying USF is the model of choice, but the units it's forced to use out preform the Ostheer ones.

I understand that grens can't 1 vs1 1 rifle, but what about 4 rifles (blob) vs 2 grens + 1 hmg and a mortar, I recon with the same amount of micro the Werh would win.
4 rifles = 1120 vs 960 mp. I even dare say the US would probably bleed more in that situation.

Even 4 rifles vs 2 grens + 1 sniper is a close match.

I completely agree with your map argument, though you have certain docs that can help you with certain maps.

222
http://www.coh2-stats.com/small_arms/scout_car_mg34_pintle_generic_mp

M20
http://www.coh2-stats.com/small_arms/m20_utility_car_m2hb_50cal_mounted_mp

Puma MG42
http://www.coh2-stats.com/small_arms/sdkfz_234_mg42_mp

the take away is that the 222 does twice the damage of the M20 at long range and has better fall off but the platform is much weaker and you don't get the utility of bazookas. the puma has 8.3 ranged dps, more than the others by 2-3 times, but it doesn't improve much with distance.

222
Stats

Thats not really the take away, since again the 222 also has a cannon. M20 doesnt. The 222 statisticly is a better anti infantry vehicle than the M20. Way better.


I dont know the stats or the math behind the cannon's damage but the Cannon isnt awful against infantry at close range. maybe at longer ranges... but at close range the cannon is nasty from my own ostheer experience.

Ill say it again. The Early Problem with Ostheer is not their units or equipment. They dont need outright buffs. .

The problem is the game mechanics regarding blobs,and their teching which prevents them from fielding ENOUGH combat capable units. Not that their units arent combat capable on their own. The MG42 is great when you have enough grens to support it or a sniper to spot/support for it. or better yet BOTH. Or even better,a mortar on top of all of that!



However having 2-3 grens,MG,Sniper,Mortar+Med bunker against USF is just begging to get ' by an M20 or worse an AA Halftrack before you get to the good stuff. So fix the tech costs...and theres no problem.

speaking of the good stuff
P4 vs jackson...The problem isnt the P4. its the jackson doing 240 damage. It needs to do 160-200 with a higher pen and lower ROF.

Tiger vs jackson..if you ost players feel the jackson is a problem for your tigers,even in the current meta right now,learn to micro a PaK. a jackson cant hit your tiger without taking a hit from a pak(Or two)


P4 vs Easy 8 and T3485,Support the P4 with Paks,which isnt very fun or practical all the time ill admit that, so again the tech problem comes up..since these are call ins..again not a problem with the Ostheer, a problem with game mechanics..
You cant get a better medium that can counter these allied beasts because the panther is essentially locked because of tech costs. Fix that...and there is no problem. the P4 doesnt need a buff either...

222
http://www.coh2-stats.com/small_arms/scout_car_mg34_pintle_generic_mp

M20
http://www.coh2-stats.com/small_arms/m20_utility_car_m2hb_50cal_mounted_mp

Puma MG42
http://www.coh2-stats.com/small_arms/sdkfz_234_mg42_mp

the take away is that the 222 does twice the damage of the M20 at long range and has better fall off but the platform is much weaker and you don't get the utility of bazookas. the puma has 8.3 ranged dps, more than the others by 2-3 times, but it doesn't improve much with distance.

And why would 222 need any utility of bazooka?
It already have upgrade that allows it to effortlessly win against more expensive light vehicles like M20 or greyhound. I'd gladly trade M20 bazooka for armament that actually is useful against light armor.

And why would 222 need any utility of bazooka?
It already have upgrade that allows it to effortlessly win against more expensive light vehicles like M20 or greyhound. I'd gladly trade M20 bazooka for armament that actually is useful against light armor.

Eh...thats, you know, half the picture. Throw in much higher survivability, AT mines, crew repairs+superglue and you shall see why the M20 lives up to its designation (utility car) while the 222 has become a rather exotic sight to behold. Even with the crap US snare it is too vulnerable for what it does.

I kind of feel like the only thing the 222 needs is slightly more armor so that it isn't so frequently forced off by just rifle fire sans AT. The M3 and kubel need small arms vulnerability because of their timing but I feel like the 222 comes late enough that making it a bit more resilient to small arms would be fair.

I would love to see 222 as useful unit.
I has lowe armor than PzWefer - which is completly unhistorical.
55 muni for useless upgrade.
Unit that should be soft counter against infantry can be pushed back by Shocks.
Late war version had armor very similar to Puma (thickness at some places).


Not to mention that is was a way smaller than Jadgpanzer but in CoH2, 222 is bigger than Jadg...

Remember the Flampanzerwagen. Anybody? Its been out of the Meta for ages. Perhaps its time to bring it back down to BP1. Then Ostheer all of a sudden has the option for two light vehicles. One that counters light vehicles and another that counters infantry spam.

Remember the Flampanzerwagen. Anybody? Its been out of the Meta for ages. Perhaps its time to bring it back down to BP1. Then Ostheer all of a sudden has the option for two light vehicles. One that counters light vehicles and another that counters infantry spam.

I never mentioned that unit for a reason, while it may help against usf, It'll probably break the ost vs sov line up again.

I never mentioned that unit for a reason, while it may help against usf, It'll probably break the ost vs sov line up again.

Why? It seems reasonable. I mean, first 6mins for M3 with Engi/Penals with flamethrower, after that it's time for 251 with flamethrower. Seems fair.

222 needs a increase in armor and HP, and cost increase of course, and perhaps time to bring single panzershreck back to PG....the original faction are so leftbehind

Why? It seems reasonable. I mean, first 6mins for M3 with Engi/Penals with flamethrower, after that it's time for 251 with flamethrower. Seems fair.

the flame ht is much more survivable and usf have more reliable counters to it than the soviets, but with the proper changes to the soviet and ost line up then having it come out early again would be ok.

Swap battlephase cost with tier buildings. Now you don't have such a quick FHT rush, but still early on to have an impact.

battlephase and tier building should be cheaper, there's no reward building/upgrading it compare to WFA, something like unlock medkit for troops will be resonable(just like vCOH) and change the veterancy 1 with better bonus.

Make it more like the us quad. would solve a lot of issues. 320mp 45 fuel. 15/10 armor 320 hp the cannon mirrors the 37 mm quad and the mg mirrors the one mg of the quad. quad maintains range advantage and more dps as well as suppression but it will no longer be a lopsided battle in favour of the quad and gives the ost a good light vehicle to counter sniper spam and maxim spam.

And why would 222 need any utility of bazooka?
It already have upgrade that allows it to effortlessly win against more expensive light vehicles like M20 or greyhound. I'd gladly trade M20 bazooka for armament that actually is useful against light armor.

it doesn't need it. the bazooka should still be taken into consideration though as it does have an impact. 222 can kill the M20 but die to the crew bazookas for example. i've had that happen to me from both sides.

Thats not really the take away, since again the 222 also has a cannon. M20 doesnt. The 222 statisticly is a better anti infantry vehicle than the M20. Way better.


I dont know the stats or the math behind the cannon's damage but the Cannon isnt awful against infantry at close range. maybe at longer ranges... but at close range the cannon is nasty from my own ostheer experience.

the cannon is meh against infantry and tends to fuck up the MG. it's not a significant change to the dps afaik. the stats don't seem to be on coh2-stats.com though. the 222 does have better dps but MUCH lower survivability than the M20 for multiple reasons. if it dies it's not doing damage anymore. that does come down some to player skill but there still RNG, pathing, etc.

delete please

The 222 is bad, the sniper hp is bad, and the mg42 turn rate is bad. Mg42 and 222 are citical to early game success against americans and are UP units. 222s counter m20s but good players just pop the crew out and hit the 222 which will usually kill it because what experienced player doesn't have riflemen nearby. No wonder players need to get as many lmg grens as possible, because literally the only good units are the mortar which is not reliable early game unit, upgraded grenadiers, and panzergrenadiers which is ok at best. Not to mention a panzer4 as quick as possible is usually what is always needed. By then the tiger is the saving grace, and if that thing is ever lost you are hopeless fighting jacksons and m8 squad wipe car by normal means. Don't bother with t4, even if the panther is good the brummbar the panzerwerfer and the tech costs are all a shit show.

Of course you could try for a stug e, but don't bother with assault grenadiers because despite being 280- manpower they lose to riflemen even at close range half the time. That unit is literally a pioneer squad with a 5th man and sprint. Doesn't matter if they are ok against cons at close range, shocks will always be chosen and counter them easily because by the time 2 cps are hit its like the 5 minute mark, so these units also need a buff.

Wehrmacht is also the only faction that needs a building to employ its basic infantry.While seemingly insignificant,it means often in the first engagement you find yourself outnumbered.
Grenadiers can hold there own if there is a lot of cover(at least some green) around,though cover makes mg 42 rather useless because it takes ages to suppress anything,mortar is much better here.
In the open grens are slaughtered by rifles and mg42 which should hold them back atleast -can't most of the time.Grenadier dps earlygame is insufficient to defeat the flanking rifles,the additional free lieutenant with BAR compounds the problem by outnumbering you while ur desperately teching.Mostly hope flamer pio is upto the job.

Thing is of its 3 doctrines,america fields extreme powerful infantry in all 3 doctrines.In airborne,paras once upgunned have no ost counter,even LMG grenadiers will not stop them.
Same for 1919,no ost infantry counter.Ur only hope is rifle grenade and mortars.
Veteran riflemen.Starting off with vet 1 or vet 2,already another advantage over already hard pressed ost infantry.Gets to vet 3 faster.

221/222 -wth can this thing do?Nothing.Negligible dmg to infantry at range and if u try to close to get better dmg u die simply,1 at ande will be more or less death.I see shocks charginga nd bullying it.
So you get ur pak out if u have lasted that long and guard it with everything u have at ur cutoff or fuel as rifle horde hovers alternatively attacking where u aren't and probing for one mistake,one way in to end game.He pens u in.preventing any small offensive with with light vehicle and in maybe a small number of cases u make it to tiger,in most cases if u didn't die early-he eventually breaks through and finishes u off.