Panzershrecks outrange T70 and T34

Burst damage >>>> Prolonged DPS

Burst damage >>>> Prolonged DPS

exactly. considering that mediums have fairly low health, prolonged dps is irrelevant

Keep in mind MP and F cost to unlock bazookas.

Keep in mind the MP and F cost to unlock Shreck. (Truck cost - don't say "you get it anyway" it's still cost spent)

just a friendly reminder that double bar vet 3 rifles are just as strong as obers. friendly reminder that vet 3 pathfinders with bars are stronger than obers.

So this unit unit that you spend 120 munitions- since you can drop those BARs it isn't unreasonable to bump it up to 180- on and 280 man power, and then pay upkeep and keep alive for most of the game are competitive with a unit any OKW player can field?


This is the same horseshit WM players got in COH1 where they just spent man power and fuel to get what every other goddamn player had to actually earn.

No the zooka simply lacks targets. it excels against vehicles and medium tanks. while you see some vehicles, currently the okw elite armor doctrine is piss poor and ostheer tier 3 is in shambles. so you wont be seeing p4 anytime soon. neither handeld weapon performs well against the heavy tanks however.

Good thing the US has heavy tanks.


Wait, they don't? And the OKW gets one core?


I can't even give you the comment that they're good against medium tanks. Bazookas exist for no purpose other than to inconvenience vehicles and remind tanks that they might get hit while they retreat. Might.

Do shreks have better accuracy than zooks?

It seems way harder to get zooks to hit in the first place compared to shreks.

They don't really have an accuracy table so much as a scatter table.


And because Relic Balance is arbitrated over by wehraboos, the Panzershrek has a slightly smaller scatter factor.

Keep in mind the MP and F cost to unlock Shreck. (Truck cost - don't say "you get it anyway" it's still cost spent)

Bazooka is side cost.

Setting up a truck that you start with the resources for is not.

Do you want me to explain what side costs are and why they need to be taken into account when talking about upgrades that require side costs to unlock?

Or you play some magic, no truck setup OKW BO that makes you think setting up a truck is fully optional and a side choice, like getting bazookas is?

@acosn
No, you are confusing it with indirect fire weapons.
Every single direct fire weapon uses accuracy. Everything bigger then rifle uses accuracy and when miss, scatter to determine hits. Shreck/zooka is no exception here and yes, shrecks are more accurate.

Bazooka is side cost.

Setting up a truck that you start with the resources for is not.

Do you want me to explain what side costs are and why they need to be taken into account when talking about upgrades that require side costs to unlock?

Or you play some magic, no truck setup OKW BO that makes you think setting up a truck is fully optional and a side choice, like getting bazookas is?

@acosn
No, you are confusing it with indirect fire weapons.
Every single direct fire weapon uses accuracy. Everything bigger then rifle uses accuracy and when miss, scatter to determine hits. Shreck/zooka is no exception here and yes, shrecks are more accurate.

I get what you're saying, maybe make Zooks tied in to LT or Captain?

Reading this thread its kinda funny that the idea of zooks vs heavy armor is deemed unfair. Yet no one talks about how shreks plink off the front of an IS-2. -Atleast in games they do for me. zooks in the game are built for medium armor, though at its current state not many German players can or do build medium armor where as shreks (used for same purpose) face an abundance of medium armor because the allied mediums are actually worthwhile to get and use - as well as plentiful. I think a root issue is not zooks or shreks but rather the well relic has designed the tanks in the game.
-Tanks should have more than 2 hitboxs....there should be side armor, lower front plate armor, rear armor, and so on for it would make things alot better. Again just my 2 cents

Reading this thread its kinda funny that the idea of zooks vs heavy armor is deemed unfair. Yet no one talks about how shreks plink off the front of an IS-2. -Atleast in games they do for me. zooks in the game are built for medium armor, though at its current state not many German players can or do build medium armor where as shreks (used for same purpose) face an abundance of medium armor because the allied mediums are actually worthwhile to get and use - as well as plentiful. I think a root issue is not zooks or shreks but rather the well relic has designed the tanks in the game.
-Tanks should have more than 2 hitboxs....there should be side armor, lower front plate armor, rear armor, and so on for it would make things alot better. Again just my 2 cents

That sounds good, except the data seems to have something else to say (unless I have an incorrect understanding of figuring penetration):

Zook vs panther front at max range = 34% chance to pen

Shreck vs IS-2 front at max range = 42% chance to pen

And just for fun. Zook vs KT at max range = 25% chance to pen

This in conjunction with the fact that a panzershreck is more likely to even hit the target.

exactly. considering that mediums have fairly low health, prolonged dps is irrelevant

practically its best to look at the first few volleys, since its likely that medium armor will back up as soon as they see AT weaponry.

lets limit the window of engagement to 11 or so seconds. in this time frame, a bazooka can fire 3 times. if all 3 shots successfully penetrate, you deal 80 x 3 damage. in the same time frame, a shrek will fire twice, for 120 x 2 damage.
if you further limit the window of engagement to 6 seconds, the bazooka will deal 160 damage, where as the shrek will only be able fire once so that it deals 120 damage.
equip another bazooka for 60 munitions and you double the damage output.

imo the only real downside for the bazooka is that its penetration really sucks compared to the shrek.

Double bazookas also makes your rifle squad weaker not only in the sense that they lose a rifle, but also in the sense that they are denied the much needed BAR/m1919 upgrades for those units to scale into a world filled with Gren LMGs, Obers, Falls etc. If you're loading them on rear ech that can be a bit of a crap shoot since they're so squishy with fewer men.

USF bazookas, AT guns and Jacksons are all fantastic counters to medium armour, but the meta is all about getting the heaviest stuff on the field. Tigers, Panthers and KT are all where the game will inevitably go if you don't lock it down early. Which is arguably the root cause of team game imba, since it's so much harder to shut those down early. Doing double USF team games was always pretty painful for this reason.

Double bazookas also makes your rifle squad weaker not only in the sense that they lose a rifle, but also in the sense that they are denied the much needed BAR/m1919 upgrades for those units to scale into a world filled with Gren LMGs, Obers, Falls etc. If you're loading them on rear ech that can be a bit of a crap shoot since they're so squishy with fewer men.

USF bazookas, AT guns and Jacksons are all fantastic counters to medium armour, but the meta is all about getting the heaviest stuff on the field. Tigers, Panthers and KT are all where the game will inevitably go if you don't lock it down early. Which is arguably the root cause of team game imba, since it's so much harder to shut those down early. Doing double USF team games was always pretty painful for this reason.

rear echelons are definitely a better bazooka platform than rifles since, as you say, you dont wanna sacrifice rifle weapon slots for zooks. also with veterancy rear echelons are not that bad actually. with 20% bonus accuracy at vet 1, a 5th squad member at vet 2, and -23% recieved accuracy and 20% weapon cooldown at vet 3. and you can gain veterancy pretty quickly when youre damaging vehicles, and if you utilize an early fighting pit, you could gain veterancy quickly with a few good rifle nade hits. even if theyre squishy at vet 0, you kind of only want to use them when vehicles are present and keep them slightly behind your main line infantry, so theyre not soaking up fire.

practically its best to look at the first few volleys, since its likely that medium armor will back up as soon as they see AT weaponry.

lets limit the window of engagement to 11 or so seconds. in this time frame, a bazooka can fire 3 times. if all 3 shots successfully penetrate, you deal 80 x 3 damage. in the same time frame, a shrek will fire twice, for 120 x 2 damage.
if you further limit the window of engagement to 6 seconds, the bazooka will deal 160 damage, where as the shrek will only be able fire once so that it deals 120 damage.
equip another bazooka for 60 munitions and you double the damage output.

imo the only real downside for the bazooka is that its penetration really sucks compared to the shrek.

It doesn't matter because bazooka is more likely to bounce of target than Shreck.

Because no one bats an eye when they lose an entire squad to a sturmpanzer 4 either, wehraboo. People don't generally build the Panzer 4 not as a concession to the quality of the Panzer 4- its better than anything the allies build- but because there's another unit that does it's job better. There are two tanks that are better dedicated infantry breakers. There's one tank core doctrine that's better at tank hunting. Panzer 4's are an oh-shit button. Comparatively Allies players actually build their proper medium tanks because they have nothing else.


And it is unfair that the bazooka's a POS. Not only is it inferior to the Panzershrek in performance, it statistically gets far worse when you factor in the fact that German armor is more durable than allied armor. Your bazooka's less accurate, and they deal less damage per successful hit and have a lower chance of penetrating to begin with.


And of course this also ignores the issue that the two best AT guns in the game are Axis.

Hey smart one read the end of my post. Wait nevermind let me quote you it, "Tanks should have more than 2 hitboxs....there should be side armor, lower front plate armor, rear armor and so on".
This is the issue at hand not zooks, If Panthers and King Tigers came out on the field and had side armor hit boxes zooks would more than likely go through more often on the premise that the side armor is flat not sloped like the front(if you cant do math let me know Ill show you the mathematics of how Effective armor is calculated). The issue is not zooks and shreks but rather the in game armor models relic uses.

practically its best to look at the first few volleys, since its likely that medium armor will back up as soon as they see AT weaponry.

lets limit the window of engagement to 11 or so seconds. in this time frame, a bazooka can fire 3 times. if all 3 shots successfully penetrate, you deal 80 x 3 damage. in the same time frame, a shrek will fire twice, for 120 x 2 damage.
if you further limit the window of engagement to 6 seconds, the bazooka will deal 160 damage, where as the shrek will only be able fire once so that it deals 120 damage.
equip another bazooka for 60 munitions and you double the damage output.

imo the only real downside for the bazooka is that its penetration really sucks compared to the shrek.

Right, but that's basically the problem. You can't just be like, well they are just as good, except for this really important statistic that they suck at.

While two zooks do have more theoretical dps than 1 schrek, when you factor in penetration, they don't really. A bazooka has a 61% chance to pen a p4 at max range, while a schrek has a 100% chance to pen a T-34 and a regular sherman at max range. So you can see why it feels like, schreks are always dominating allied mediums, but zooks feel worthless. Like someone had said earlier, the burst damage is really important in these battles since a tank is likely to retreat or back away after a volley is launched.

However, I do think that just upping the pen on bazookas is kind of boring. I'd like to figure out some way to make zooks more effective without them needing to be a mirror of schreks. Maybe something like, giving zooks much higher pen at near range, and then a big drop off at max. So that it encourages you to try to close in on tanks with your infantry, or something like that. Or maybe the reverse, maybe schreks need their max range pen to be a lot lower so they only outmatch zooks at close range. Or maybe some other idea.

when do i say that zooks are a better overall weapon than shreks? shreks are better because theyre more reliable. zooks are very useful for dealing with light armor like the flak halftrack that has seen a popular rise now a day. they still retain some usefulness in mid game with dealing with, or fighting off medium armor, and can basically only take on heavy armor when shooting from the rear and flanking. where as the shrek is a pretty run of the mill AT weapon, the zooka is more of a rapid firing weapon (that you can get a lot of) thats best used when flanking to maximize your damage potential.

If you don't want to factor in penetration, then I present you the best AT weapon in game-PTRS which have most AT DPS and accuracy.

Obviously, I hope I don't need to convince anyone that penetration does matter here and its not PTRS that is best AT weapon in game.

i guess it boils down to the Allied player doing more work to achieve the same result

i guess it boils down to the Allied player doing more work to achieve the same result

And spending more resources, don't forget about spending more resources.