Wehrmacht Ostheer

And would it break your bubble if I told you that last changes that were made to ost T3 buffed it?

You mean when the Ostwind and Panzer IV got cost nerfs while the StuG got a durability and AT nerf in exchange for an AI buff that wasn't needed because we have the Panzer IV and Ostwind? T3 had good synergy before that, besides the blind P4 gunner. Ostwind was your AI, StuG was your AT, and P4 was in between both. The changes, while some good, hurt T3 overall and reduced the differences between the units.

The changes in question:

Show Spoiler

You mean when the Ostwind and Panzer IV got cost nerfs while the StuG got a durability and AT nerf in exchange for an AI buff that wasn't needed because we have the Panzer IV and Ostwind? T3 had good synergy before that, besides the blind P4 gunner. Ostwind was your AI, StuG was your AT, and P4 was in between both. The changes, while some good, hurt T3 overall and reduced the differences between the units.

The changes in question:

Show Spoiler

Yes, I mean exactly the changes that made P4 completely murder infantry while not really changing anything against tanks it beats and was beaten by, the changes that made Ostwind valid AND cheaper alternative to P4 while making it a little bit more affordable AA and the changes to StuG that made it murder infantry and let it be spammable general support for either Ostwind or P4.

The synergies are still there and while P4 is clearly the top of the current T3 food chain, StuG-G is still a viable choice, just not as the first T3 unit, HP nerf is meaningless against anything other then SU-76, PTRS and zooka and it lost quite a number from its cost.

Ostwind still murders infantry while providing AA cover and is an option to rush for to punish player waiting for late call-ins.

Take a look at the cost changes-the underused units were made noticably cheaper while not really changing their performance on the long run while P4 became best stock T3 armor in game, being deadly against both, armor and infantry and being durable as well.

Yes, I mean exactly the changes that made P4 completely murder infantry while not really changing anything against tanks it beats and was beaten by, the changes that made Ostwind valid AND cheaper alternative to P4 while making it a little bit more affordable AA and the changes to StuG that made it murder infantry and let it be spammable general support for either Ostwind or P4.

The change that made it murder infantry is actually an unlisted change, since it's unlisted I don't know where it was. The change was the hull machine-gun was changed from 2 to 4 damage, doubling its DPS. Before that, it was similar to the T-34's hull machine gun, which we know is very weak.

The synergies are still there and while P4 is clearly the top of the current T3 food chain, StuG-G is still a viable choice, just not as the first T3 unit, HP nerf is meaningless against anything other then SU-76, PTRS and zooka and it lost quite a number from its cost.

They aren't there. The StuG is side AI/AT, the Panzer IV is side AI/AT as well but better at both. The StuG no longer dedicates itself to any role, the only difference is the Panzer IV is more durable and has a turret and better scaling. The only reason to get a StuG is if you're desperate or you plan to get at least 2 and use spotting scopes and Panzergrenadiers.

Take a look at the cost changes-the underused units were made noticably cheaper while not really changing their performance on the long run while P4 became best stock T3 armor in game, being deadly against both, armor and infantry and being durable as well.

The problem with that is it's better than stock tanks, but weaker than call-ins. Which means nobody uses the stock tanks because they lose to the Panzer IV, but nobody uses the Panzer IV because they lose to call-in tanks. In the end it's all Call-Ins and Panthers. I don't think the Panzer IV needed that armour buff, I wouldn't actually mind it or the MG buff undone, or both if the cost increase is also undone.

The meta problems regarding Call-Ins, the M36, and OKW also need to be addressed for a healthy Wehr T3 (and allied factions) to thrive again. The "bigger is better" meta is bad for gameplay and I'm quite sick of it, I just want to use my beloved medium tanks again without hindering my chances at victory. (Note: I'm talking about 2v2 and up)

stug g doesn't murder infantry; every third or fourth shot snipes a model. it does deal AA damage and USF hates it until they get jacksons out but it's far from an efficient AI source.

yes, it literally does, but not figuratively.

Make grenadier LMGs fireable on the move like BARs,if relic is too incompetent or lazy to actually make any changes to pzgrens or give us any elite inf options this should be easy.
Alternatively make BARs nonfireable on the move.

Umm, quite a few(vast majority) of ost players I've played scream "support weapon this, support weapon that" and then attempted to use them as frontline units.

HMG42s should be BEHIND grenadiers, not before them, then you'll see them working.

PaKs should be BEHIND or near shrecked PGs, not instead of them, then you'll have very solid AT support.

If you really believe you can't rely on ost mortar, then I don't even know what to say, turbomortar is best stock indirect infantry weapon in game when it comes to ROF, accuracy and cost.

And would it break your bubble if I told you that last changes that were made to ost T3 buffed it?

Only real performance issue when it comes to units is about pwerfer and FHT. Every other issue literally boils down to tech costs.

HMGs are used behind frontline units,and get rolled nonetheless.Between smoke,huge repoistioning time,bad traverse,unreliable suppression,no dmg and grenade while suppressed or just picked off by DPS of blob or urrah its total shit this popcornsprayer42.I have been using mg42s for a loong time,never was this unit such a piece of garbage.

It is,and is used that way.Don't pretend you have to teach these basic things to ost players.We play our share.Getting to pak while being pushed y rifles and free units is hard enough,then light vehicle comes,and if he sees pak he will just pen you in by using it to crush any capping attempt while his main rifle force besieges ur pak and its defenses,probing and prodding for a way in.I know this part well,i have played it far too many times.

Mortar is a good unit.Only one left in T1.

Ost t3 cost rocketed and it became even more useless.Your grand panzer 4 costs 10 MP and 5 fuel less than a t-34/85.And no it doesn't murder infantry,tiger does.Before vet 2 pz 4 will with a good hit kill 2 models,max 3,generally one.Even a captain can bring its health down quite a bit before retreating unless ur kiting is absolutely perfect.

Now onto the real performance issues-

Sniper.Paper thin ,dies from a sneeze,while sov sniper gets both 2 members AND sprint.
Popcornsprayer42 -Nuff said.
Grens - Earlygame bullied by rifles,struggling vs conspam,Midgame with LMG good,lategame again 4 man squads wipe to quickly,can't fight double BArs or elite infantry effectively who only have to make them move.They also are unable to wipe enemy squads unless he is careless due to 6 and 5 man squads.Only reliable wiping tool is rifle nade which any keen player will detect and avoid.While themselves getting wiped ,even at vet 3 is very easy and sudden(especially to grenades,mortars,1919,sherman HE and motor howitzer,or medium call-in).

You avoided the 221 armored car and its fartcannon,75 muni upgrade..does shit dmg.1 AT nade and its down to 33% helath or less with engine dmg.There goes ur MP,fuel and muni investment along with the tech costs assocaited.Worst early light vehicle in the game in terms of utility when u compare to kubel,greyhound,m20,aa halftrack,m3.

Panzergrenadiers-'Advanced infantry',better they name it 'weak shit- If u have manpower to dump ,deposit here'.Total farce as AI.(and yeah we use it in cover whenever available from mid range..don't parrot the old record)Only good as stopgap AT.Nothing else.Relic should delete the AI version and make this dedicated tankbuster squad.
1.13 recieved accuracy lol for 340 MP and 40 fucking reinforce when shocks at 390,6 men and smoke and 1.5 armor plus 35 odd reinforce..and paras at 6 men plus 28 lol reinforce.Loses 1 model and its DPS is down to 75%.Has trouble beating vetted conscripts and wipes far too quickly.

FHT - nuff said.

Stug - Poor penetration and jackson 2 shot.And its 'upgraded capability' against infantry is still poor.For that u should just get stug E.

Pz 4 - Already being discussed.

Panther -Inaccessible.
Brummbarr -Inaccesible and hilariously costly.
Panzerwerfer -Admitted it urself.


Faction has been nerfed inside out from teching to most of its units gradually over the last year.It was hanging on by a string of niche units - pak,tiger,lmg grens.With pak nerf and lmg nerf it has collapsed finally.Of course relic doesn't give a shit,never has about wehrmacht.It only recognizes the faction exists when it needs to nerf something.
Pzgrens needed a renerf.Pak nerf.Gren DPS got fucked over this long range bullshit.Tiger was nerfed a while back(to make is-2 better,logic being 'supporting pak',ofc then pak was nerfed too)

Overall grenadiers vetreancy and LMG dmg needs a nerf.This will fix ostheer infantry from being OP.
Panzergrenadiers reinforce needs to be at 40.Otherwise they would become terminator squads.
Mg42 is tolerable at least now,before they would insta suppress everything.
Armored car is very good,You just L2P.

I would say ostheer is quite balanced,but noobs like me just don't know how to use it.

I would say ostheer is quite balanced,but noobs like me just don't know how to use it.

Yea hopfully Wehr will get a tech overhual. but i can hope

The 222 scout car only saw its glory days for a short period of time when relic was changing the cover system and they raped everything outside of cover.

It's back to square 1, because of its high vulnerability and time it hits the field.

Even when it gets to vet 3 its still just a distraction for you to micro when you could be paying more attention to something much more valuable.

I'm fairly certain if it got halftrack armor it would be perfect. Or would that be to much of a buff? I mean it can still die to small arms fire.

The 222 scout car only saw its glory days for a short period of time when relic was changing the cover system and they raped everything outside of cover.

It's back to square 1, because of its high vulnerability and time it hits the field.

Even when it gets to vet 3 its still just a distraction for you to micro when you could be paying more attention to something much more valuable.

I'm fairly certain if it got halftrack armor it would be perfect. Or would that be to much of a buff? I mean it can still die to small arms fire.

Main problem i face using this unit-takes resources to access and upgrade.But its gun does poor dmg at range,any closer and u die too quickly.Its very difficult to make any use of except making snipers keep distance.I have seen some guys give vet 3 straight up to it by elite troops but i always thought it was waste.

The 222 scout car only saw its glory days for a short period of time when relic was changing the cover system and they raped everything outside of cover.

It's back to square 1, because of its high vulnerability and time it hits the field.

Even when it gets to vet 3 its still just a distraction for you to micro when you could be paying more attention to something much more valuable.

I'm fairly certain if it got halftrack armor it would be perfect. Or would that be to much of a buff? I mean it can still die to small arms fire.

I think theres a problem with dps on the move.
http://www.coh2.org/topic/28943/222-coxial-machine-gun-broken

A lot of these problems could be solved if 222 was not such a piece of useless trash that's a waste of fuel mp and mu.

Wehrmacht suffers from some poor units early game being mainly:
MG-42
Sniper
222

This kind of pigeonholes Wehr to go gren spam every game, Maybe a mortar or a mg here and there but certainly not the centerpiece of Wehrs early game. Wehr stands on pretty much grens pzgrens and paks alone until tanks come.

The sherman HE is a death sentence for ost t2 in most cases even if u survive rifles and the light vehicle,especially when combined with a rifle blob rush.

Everyone knows Ostheer is the weakest faction now except Relic.

The teching cost is the biggest joke. You upgrade the battlephase costing 200 MP and some fuel. Then you have to build buildings costing more resources and the time (yes the time!) while USF gains a free combat unit. What a perfect design OMG...

The usless units. No one faction has so many usless units like Ost.
The sniper, OMG I almost forget when I built a sniper last time. And fck off when Allies fans say the sniper is good at fighting against USF blobs.
The 222 and 251 suffers from the high teching cost too and upgrading weapons with munitions is a huge waste of resources. I'm not so foolish that I upgrade a 120 munition weapon on this 251 when I'm getting BP2. Big waste!
The PG, wow... nothing to say about this unit...
The werfer and Strumpanzer Brumbar, could they be more cheap? Already they have suffered from the hign teching cost. And could the Werfer be more accurate??

It's verry hard to play Ostheer these days, I wouldn't deny it. But there are solutions. Many people here said upguned scout car is waste of mp and fuel. Agreed. That is why I NEVER BUILD IT anymore. I prefere some pgs and a pack if we are talking about t2. Get the idea?
The armor is to expensive, agreed, and T3 is dominated by USF T4 because of jacksons, that is why building stugs near your paks and pzgrens could be a better option than pzIV that everybody is addicted to. Stugs are cheaper and have great range. At least you will return fire instead getting hit and not be able to reply. Add a ostwind if you can.

Then, T4 is far to expensive, as well as vehicles in it. That is why I almost never build it and go into Tiger. As many as I can.

So yes, ostheer is difficult to play, weaker than OKW, probably weaker than soviets, but I don't think is that weak as some players say.

If RElic doesn't change anything on ost next patch,they should remove the faction and start afresh.The only commander which makes this faction playable vs usf is mech assault,which is premium.Its a slow,sensitive faction(to squadwipes)with 4 man squads and high reinforce costs plus brutal tech costs and highly predictable.If its infantry its grens-you know they have nothing else.You know endgame is tiger.The whole longrange thing doesn't work because grens don't have enough DPS to keep the fight there,maps and mg42 is impotent.And its defensive playstyle is further hampered by lack of proper artillery -both lefh and pzwerfer suck balls.A ost defensive line is just vet fodder for katyusha with no answer.
Its lack of mines is another crutch.Teller is too expensive and exclusive,and s-mine is just a joke with the signboard.At least if it had proper AI mines enemy elite inf could be combated more easily.Overall fail faction atm.The wheel used to spin for a long time on a few important cogs - gren lmgs,paks,particularly.Several of its earlygame units were progressively nerfed into uselessness and now its collapsing.Its a siege faction.When you play ostheer,play it like you are in a siege,if u survive the siege you can see the tiger.Then actual game begins.

The usless units. No one faction has so many usless units like Ost.

No.. Soviets have the most useless units

Most ost units perform very well. It just the tech costs

No.. Soviets have the most useless units

Most ost units perform very well. It just the tech costs

The Ostwind wipes/damages squads less reliably than almost every allied medium tank, costs 100 fuel, has less armor than a P4 and is worse than the Flaktrak for shooting down planes. The Ostheer sniper is horribly overpriced. The Panther is a giant waste of fuel due to the zero AI ability and horrible fire rate, the Sturmpanzer is way to expensive for what it does as well.

Those are just off the top of my head, both soviets -and- Ostheer need work.

No.. Soviets have the most useless units

Most ost units perform very well. It just the tech costs

Soviet number of really useful units is far more than ostheer.Let's count

Infantry & support-
Conscripts
Sniper.
Maxim
81mm mortar
120 mm
shocks
Zis-3

Armor and artillery -

B4
Katyusha
Su-85
T-34/85
IS-2
ISU-152
KV-8
Quad Halftrack

Ostheer -

Inf and support -

Grenadiers.
81mm mortar
Pak 40
Pak43

Armor and artillery -

Tiger
Panther
Stug E


There -You can see for yourself buddy.
Soviets have more powerful infantry once shocks are out.
Far superior artillery.
Equal armor.
Better mines.

Decide yourself.

There -You can see for yourself buddy.
Soviets have more powerful infantry once shocks are out.
Far superior artillery.
Equal armor.
Better mines.

Decide yourself.

Why did u include doctrinal units?

lmg grens > cons/penals

pg grens > cons penals (even with flames, supported pgrens are very good)

p4 > t34/76 p4 wins at both AI and AT

stug G > su 76

sov sniper > ost sniper

panzer wefer < katy

panther > all armor including su-85

OST Halftrack > sov, sov halftrack cant supress shit. even the ost halftrack can roast shit

pak > Zis When only using stock tanks that Pak shines

shreks > nothing

maxim > mg42 we all know why the maxim is better (im very iffy on this, seeing that in a real game rifle nades rape maxims)

Ost mortor > sov mortor Ost mortor has very high rate of fire and accuracy

and brummbar. i dont consider this a plus. just an option

im probably missing some units

now lets see

Number of units that outperform thier counterpart...

ostheer 9

soviets 3

im not saying that ost is stronger

But soviets take the cake for most useless units

Try to beat a good wehr player without a commander

Thank you for confirming that you don't play soviets

The Panther is a giant waste of fuel due to the zero AI ability

Sayyyy whaaaaaat?

MGs can blead infantry. The Panther can also crush. There are no allied Shreks. If you would like to see what 0 AI feels like I present the following:

Elephant
JagdTiger
SU85
JP4
Jackson
M10

If you would like to see what 0 AI feels like I present the following:

M10

The most murderous anti-infantry vehicle in the game thanks to having the fastest turning on a crushing vehicle. Sure the gun will kill someone once in a hundred years, but good thing they have threads.