Panzer II Luchs

Don't compare the greyhound with the luchs. Luchs should be compared with t70 and stuart.
The Luchs does not one shot full health squads, so you can react perfectly when engaging one.

I am not. I am referencing another instance where a unit dealing too much damage too quickly is a problem. I am certainly using a much more obvious example to illustrate my point, but I'm not comparing the units in and of themselves, merely a common problem with how the units perform in the game.

You mean "retreat" and wait for Luchs to wipe you on the retreat path?

Seriously? The M3a1 flamer and M20 do this all the time. Only the sdkfz 222 can't do that,only on soviet snipers.
If you send at a squad alone and don't have a mine planted on your retreat path by minute 10 it's your own fault.

You mean "retreat" and wait for Luchs to wipe you on the retreat path?

That's more often true than not.

I think the Luchs performs well theoretically. It's seven round burst is what typically pushes it past the point of effectiveness and into ridiculousness.

If it's burst were reduced to, say, 4, but the cooldown between bursts reduced so that the shots fired per minute were the same, the Luchs performance would be a better fit.

Very interesting suggestion, I like it!


I actually don't have problems dealing with the Luchs when playing sov unless I went t1 sniper or something.

On the otherhand, the Luchs is very effective vs USF and a big part of that comes from the fact, that people rarely tech zookas (because that delays bars) and because the captain means the longer way to the much needed shermans/scotts.

Seriously? The M3a1 flamer and M20 do this all the time. Only the sdkfz 222 can't do that,only on soviet snipers.
If you send at a squad alone and don't have a mine planted on your retreat path by minute 10 it's your own fault.

USF does not have mines except for the m20. And going Lieutenant is actually an Invitation to go for a Luchs.

the lusch has both high burst damage and high dps. as long as it has the same health and does the same dps it's going to be OP because it'll still kill units with impunity and wipe them on retreat.

Well, T70 wipes infantry on retreat too. But T70 and stuart don't survive 3 at gun shots or 5 shots from panzershrek. I see problem only in durability.

USF does not have mines except for the m20. And goinig Lieutenant is actually an Invitation to go for a Luchs.

The M20 mine one shots the Luchs. In my opinion it's a must have vehicle for every game, especially on maps with predictable vehicle pathing.

The M20 mine one shots the Luchs. In my opinion it's a must have vehicle for every game, especially on maps with predictable vehicle pathing.

That's true. I've been using the m20 since wfa came out. The problem is, that mines can be avoided and once your opponent sees the m20 he knows that he needs to watch out. Baiting him then often doesen't work or he simply drives around the obvious minespots.

That's true. I've been using the m20 since wfa came out. The problem is, that mines can be avoided and once your opponent sees the m20 he knows that he needs to watch out. Baiting him then often doesen't work or he simply drives around the obvious minespots.

If it prevents your squads from being chased on retreat, it's a job done? That's what you were complaining about, that usf have no mines no prevent from squads being chased.

If it prevents your squads from being chased on retreat, it's a job done? That's what you were complaining about, that usf have no mines no prevent from squads being chased.

I'm not complaining.

or he simply drives around the obvious minespots.

Once agin. The m20 mine is often worth gold. But your opponent needs to drive over it, so there's quite big factor in the equation you can't influence yourself.

The M20 mine one shots the Luchs. In my opinion it's a must have vehicle for every game, especially on maps with predictable vehicle pathing.

So the game design is broken. Except for basic units (rifle/cons/volk/gren) no other unit should be that mandatory to let you survive in the game vs a dedicated faction.
More than broken if you considere the unit ability "mandatory" so easily counterable.

Next, comparing greyhound and Luch is interesting in fact

greyhound is:
light vehicle
low base dps
canister shot ability with a close range, 40 ammo per shot. dps infantry hard counter
medium speed

Greyhound requires:
A dedicated commander.
40 fuel.
Investing 40 ammo in skirt to be durable.


Luch is:
Medium tank
Dps infantry hard counter
Dps Light vehicles
high speed

Luch requires:
80 fuel for the SPH.
50 fuel

So now, 3 USF CP (remember USF doesn't build building and so CP are going slower) + 40 fuel (+ fuel cost of captain/Lieutenant) or 80 fuel + 50 fuel make both units (based on a balanced match, nobody dominating and USF faction going lieutenant or captain at 5/7min mark) hitting the field pretty much at the same time. Greyhound would be first but his windows of action is really short, a luch alone kills a greyhound alone in a really short time and since luch goes faster, a greyhound has little escape options.
About the killing potential. The statement: greyhound wipe squad in no time is true if you're paying attention but.
Greyhound need to be close to his target, the target need to not be moving. Cover has little effect on the canister dps.
A Greyhound cannot kill a retreating full squad.
If you hit the retreat button at the moment the greyhound shot with his canister, there is a potential squad wipe since your squad members will be closed together in the first step of the retreat.
If your full squad is retreating, the greyhound cannot chase it and use its canister shot and kill all models, unless they have been blocked and regroup in their retreating path.
The Luch has more range, making him more difficult to target by zooks and other AT capabilities. So it shots earlier than the greyhound. It also uses his total dps faster since there is no cooldown for its dps and its dps is already high at max range.
About the squad wipe potential, if we are counting the time to go at range and the delay before the canister shot, a Luch is close to the greyhound in term of time to wipe a full squad. What make the difference is the number of models in the squad and the cover. Luch dps is impacted by cover.
But unlike the greyhound, the Luch can Dps his target and next run after it if it retreat dealing the same amount of dps and so finishing the squad. His dps isn't also costing 40 ammo per shot and has a really short cooldown, not comparable with the Greyhound ability delay.

So are both units dealing too much dps. Yes, both should see their dps reduced to let infantry squad a wiser window to react and if necessary to escape.
Now both units aren't using the same mechanism to deliver this dps and Luch>Greyhound in a 1vs1 encounter

Luch Pro:
overall DPS higher
DPS from farther
High dps on the move
highest speed
can chase running retreating squad
More durable
Kills all type of light vehicle in a duel

for the only cons:
Hit the field a little bit later
cost a bit more fuel than a greyhound
Dps impacted by cover
Time to wipe a bit longer but still in most of situations faster than an average player capability to react vs it.

I've taken the Luchs to be excellent against infantry, but only as long as nothing is shooting back; whenever bazookas, tanks, AT gun or even approaching conscripts or Riflemen are in range I have to keep them in mind lest I get a critical and get whittled down. I think for one thing, Riflemen's AT rifle grenade shooting faster (at least as long as Conscript's AT grenade animation and throw) wold drastically improve Riflemen's ability to counter with the need for bazooka.

In terms of fuel cost it is actually 40 (the first truck), then 80 for the flak truck, and then 50 for the Luchs itself, for a total of 170. And that's not counting time between trucks spawning, moving, and deploying, and THAT assumes they weren't destroyed or placed conservatively like in HQ sector.

I would just make Luch like the glass canon for the OKW. Decrease either armor or HP and keep all other stats the same. The US player should be able to AT nade the damn thing and finish it off with 1-2 zook shots.

I rather take Luchs over the other 2 light tanks T70 & stuart. T70 and stuart are just bad AI light tanks when their shots are inconsistent, especially when the other faction infantry is armed to the teeth with panzershreks.

I personally feel that all AI light tanks to be more like luchs.

Slightly more HP so it could absorb some damage and have consistent DPS when kiting against infantry not counting Ostwind as its a medium tank.

I've taken the Luchs to be excellent against infantry, but only as long as nothing is shooting back; whenever bazookas, tanks, AT gun or even approaching conscripts or Riflemen are in range I have to keep them in mind lest I get a critical and get whittled down. I think for one thing, Riflemen's AT rifle grenade shooting faster (at least as long as Conscript's AT grenade animation and throw) wold drastically improve Riflemen's ability to counter with the need for bazooka.

In terms of fuel cost it is actually 40 (the first truck), then 80 for the flak truck, and then 50 for the Luchs itself, for a total of 170. And that's not counting time between trucks spawning, moving, and deploying, and THAT assumes they weren't destroyed or placed conservatively like in HQ sector.

And your forgetting OKW has enough fuel for their first truck. USF starts with 0 fuel. Relevant to the discussion of USF vs the Luchs. Not so much to Soviets. So really its more like 80+50 making it 130 fuel to gain to produce a Luchs.

To put that in perspective its costs about the same as producing a Stuart with 0 upgrades to Rifles. Or quite a bit less if say you went BARs/Nades. Or Zook/Nades.

I find Jadgpanzer+Luchs a way better option than Panther.

The only allied light vehicle that can do such damage agasin infatry is Greyhound but only because of canister and after spending tons of ammo.

If you go too deep with T70 or Sturat and faced Pak, pak will shoot second time before you get out of the range.

If you go too deep with Luchs you can take 2 shots and still escape.

Not to mention if should not be in game. So few were made, and this is a tank for 1942/43, not 44/45.

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The canister shot definately needs no nerf and needs to stay as deadly as it is, simply to discourage blobbing. You take that commander for the greyhound and the IR Pathfinders. Nerf the greyhound and you will never see this commander again.

In your calculation you don't take the decreased fuel income into account which has a major impact on the whole faction.

All your pricing must be multiplied by 1,5 since okw has a 66 % fuel income.

On the other hand that means okw is the faction that starts with the most fuel (60) and indeed OKW can field a panther about 3-4 minutes later then a sherman but then again, the decreased fuel income will make the next panther hit the field when the usf player can afford 2-3 additional tanks.
Additionally this means any light vehicle a okw player deploys has a higher impact on the economy than a t70 or stuart because the delay it causes to needed tanks in late game is higher, means its riskier for okw player to deploy a light vehicle, but then again the whole faction was designed around the high risk, high reward aspect.

if you build snipers as soviets they'll just get a luchs and ram it straight into your base to kill your sniper, and most of the time they'll get away because of that turbo warp drive

The canister shot definately needs no nerf and needs to stay as deadly as it is, simply to discourage blobbing. You take that commander for the greyhound and the IR Pathfinders. Nerf the greyhound and you will never see this commander again.

In your calculation you don't take the decreased fuel income into account which has a major impact on the whole faction.

All your pricing must be multiplied by 1,5 since okw has a 66 % fuel income.

On the other hand that means okw is the faction that starts with the most fuel (60) and indeed OKW can field a panther about 3-4 minutes later then a sherman but then again, the decreased fuel income will make the next panther hit the field when the usf player can afford 2-3 additional tanks.
Additionally this means any light vehicle a okw player deploys has a higher impact on the economy than a t70 or stuart because the delay it causes to needed tanks in late game is higher, means its riskier for okw player to deploy a light vehicle, but then again the whole faction was designed around the high risk, high reward aspect.

7 Fuel per minute 50/50 Map control on Langerkaya down to 2 with Transfer. I would hardly call this a massive impact when considering the starting fuel. All it takes to even the playing field is for OKW to kill one Tank of USF and now there is no advantage at all. Your just left with better units due to Vet 5.

The Fuel impact only really applies to Soviets due to the plethora of Call ins and actually starting with Fuel. USF of course starts with 0.

For USF to take advantage of the starved fuel they need to build 1 Fuel Cache for LT or 2 if Captain. I am really tired of this arguement. Its as if Allies got 20 more fuel per minute or something.

Well, T70 wipes infantry on retreat too. But T70 and stuart don't survive 3 at gun shots or 5 shots from panzershrek. I see problem only in durability.

t70 does wipe on retreat but the lusch wipes faster in every situation.

The canister shot definately needs no nerf and needs to stay as deadly as it is, simply to discourage blobbing. You take that commander for the greyhound and the IR Pathfinders. Nerf the greyhound and you will never see this commander again.

it's not a blob counter, it's a unit hard counter. it get's rapidly worse the more units you face because it's more likely to die before the shot get's off. therefore it encourages blobbing.

fuck, double post.

The canister shot definately needs no nerf and needs to stay as deadly as it is, simply to discourage blobbing. You take that commander for the greyhound and the IR Pathfinders. Nerf the greyhound and you will never see this commander again.

In your calculation you don't take the decreased fuel income into account which has a major impact on the whole faction.

All your pricing must be multiplied by 1,5 since okw has a 66 % fuel income.

On the other hand that means okw is the faction that starts with the most fuel (60) and indeed OKW can field a panther about 3-4 minutes later then a sherman but then again, the decreased fuel income will make the next panther hit the field when the usf player can afford 2-3 additional tanks.
Additionally this means any light vehicle a okw player deploys has a higher impact on the economy than a t70 or stuart because the delay it causes to needed tanks in late game is higher, means its riskier for okw player to deploy a light vehicle, but then again the whole faction was designed around the high risk, high reward aspect.

Yes you're right I'm trying to avoid bullshit arguments. OKW doesn't starve of anything. Their teching and units cost less or have a biggest impact than other factions. This is the root cause of Luch being so powerful. It should be harder to have it, and building it at a sacrifice of AT capability, same as for any other faction.
Right now, it is a combo of volkshreck spam into luch...
What a wonderful design we get here. *Clap clap Relic