M36- badly underpowered?

Of course you need to micro it, like every single USF unit at the same time. Now I let you show me how you micro it face to a panther with the blitz ability supported by a A-move LMG/shreck push (to not say blob )

I understand the M36 cost half of the Panther price, but why would it means
-1 no escape ability (no smoke)
-2 really low penetration rate
-3 no armor
-4 0 AI power
-5 slow to move, slow to turn slow to shot
-6 no defensive veterancy abilities
-7 no shreck or pak support and only doctrinal heavy lmg support
-8 Atgun low pen rate support

for
-1 long range fire (but low pen rate)
-2 high dammage value if pen

The two high values given to the TD are completely dependent to RNG gods.

As far as I know, when I turn down half of a panther life, it can still move and retreat and use his blitz ability and repair for free.
Same amount of damage done to a M36, no more TD and Fuel/MP investment lost.

So yes, it is a good asset if you know how to micro it and have some good favor from RNG gods, but that's all and any other TD in the game is far more secure to use.

Good points. First of all my only problem is being micro intensive as you said, IMO it's fine (Pen, AI power etc) specially with vet1 BUT the problem is the Axis Blitz-escape. There is another thread about it which people suggest it should only function when moving forward. So fix Blitz and I'm happy.

Suggestion for people thinking Jacks being suck,

L2P harder, you just used it wrong.

Would be awesome if you could contribute more and leave posts like this one out.

OT: I think the penetration is off, but the rest seems ok.
I'd like it to have a tiny bit more armor, cause now it's really paper thin.

Would be awesome if you could contribute more and leave posts like this one out.

Howcome? He's only following Katitof's style of passive-aggressive posting. #Katistrat

The Jackson doesn't reliably penetrate Heavy Tanks, which is an issue when there's no other real alternative for late game AT. The Jackson really needs a penetration buff to make the weak dedicated tank destroyer with no anti infantry actual be able to reliably kill tanks. Currently the Panther is able to comfortably 1v1 Jacksons despite having so much more health, armour, anti infantry capabilities, Blitzkrieg, smoke and so on. Panthers also scale much better with Vet at vet2 giving even more armour for even less penetration. Jacksons also don't have enough self scouting to give any chase or kill potential. Even in a perfect engagement, there's nothing really stopping the Panther from just driving away without the Jackson being able to chase for fear of being instantly killed by Shreks, fausts or AT guns as well as the Panther. Let alone when you combine Smoke and Blitzkrieg. The incredibly high amount of micro and baby sitting for the Jackson does not at all make up for it's potency when it just consistently fails to penetrate Panthers and Tigers consistently, as well as missing.

I think this video sums it up quite nicely.

RNG dependent yes my Jackson was shooting at the Osther Halftrack i think one shot and we are off yes? No 3 shots :/ For comparison the M3 usf mecha company gets wrecked after one shreck or even faust.

Less damage and more reliability to pen would make me really happy with this unit since I do not believe in any gods, rng ones included.

Panther have an L/70, not an L/42.

Howcome? He's only following Katitof's style of passive-aggressive posting. #Katistrat

Not really, I like to quite often put a number or two to back myself up.

And number for you is 3.

Anyway jackson is indeed a tank destroyer that doesn't destroy tanks.

You don't need it against P4 or lower and it isn't efficient against Panther and above.

Suggestion for people thinking Jacks being suck,

L2P harder, you just used it wrong.

Erm... for a vehicle that goes boom from two shots? Sometimes you don't even have time to react.
Penetration buff or health buff I'd say. ... Still, I would suggest a health buff.

Fact is that in current state, USF armor is too shitty even for its actual price.....

240 damage, 60 range, good mobility.

If the penetration goes up, another stat has to go down. If not, that would be too much offensive capabilities.

I would like to see the damage come down to 160 in exchange for more penetration. Less Rng, but instead a more constant damage output.

Right now two Jacksons can negate any German armor on the battlefield. You just need to use them right.

In real life the 90mm M3 gun on the M36 was vastly superior in AP qualities to the German 75mm Kwk L/42 found on the Panther (source: dem internetz, also wikipedia)...

While I understand that the game isn't balanced around real life...

While you are right that CoH2 is not a simulation you are wrong in the statement that the 90 M3 is superiour to the 7,5 cm KwK 42.

Actually their anti armor performance is about the same at typical combat range of the time.

The one exeption would be the M304 HVAP projectile. A limited issue tungsten core APCR round. Comparable to the German Pzgr 40/42 only the effectiveness scales better with a larger caliber gun.

With standard issue APCBC/HE projectiles like the M82 or the Pzgr 39/42 the difference in penetration up to 1000 m is allmost nonexistent. At longer ranges the M3 starts to get a slight advantage.
The KwK 42 has a higher RoF and higher MV. Making it the superiour anti armor weapon of the two.
The M3 can use a much more effective HE shell. The M71 shell has allmost twice the projectile weight compared to the Sprgr 42.
The M3 is comparable to the German 8,8 cm KwK 36 in most regards. The KwK 42 was desigend to have the same or better anti armor performance than the latter up to 1000 m. So its no supprise the same is true for the former.

In a direct duel the M36 is allmost canceless against a Panther. Without HVAP it can't reliable penetrate the frontal armor of the Panther at combat distance while its own armor offers no protection against the Panthers gun.
Long range shots at the flanks preferable from hiding or ambush position are an effective tacti though...
this is how it works in CoH2. The M36 is not a duellist or knife fighter but a long range sniper. It needs distance and should disengage as soon at it is spotted and run if it takes return fire. Its a glass cannon.

240 damage, 60 range, good mobility.

If the penetration goes up, another stat has to go down. If not, that would be too much offensive capabilities.

Despite having 240damage, look at the actual DPS of the gun compared to a Panther, Panzer IV or Tiger because of the huge rate of fire difference. You will find the dedicated tank destroyer has less DPS than heavily armoured multi purpose frontline tanks. Let alone the penetration and every other single advantage of the Axis armour.

The Jackson doesn't reliably penetrate Heavy Tanks, which is an issue when there's no other real alternative for late game AT.

I agree that the penetration sometimes leaves something to be desired.

But it still does work currently. As anecdote a couple of games ago I killed a KT with two M36 without either of them only taking so much as a scratch from the KT. Both were allmost killed by the blob of enraged Volks who charged in after the KT burst into flames.

Jacksons need a lot of babysitting and a spotter. Wich is problematic since heavy armor can kill spotters faster than even two M36 can kill the heavy in return.

IMHO the M36 is allmost rediculously vulnurable to Infantry AT.

It shouldn't be turned into a tank though.

A health buff so it takes at least three hits to kill a Jackson would be desirable. This would give a player time to micro and fall back or kite. An acceleration buff would also help with this.
For increased penetration I think a ability like that of the AT57 would be desirable. Pay some muni and the next 3 or 4 shots are HVAP with double penetration.
Another option would be an increased ROF. Maybe only if the vehicle is stationary.
For a little more self defense a pintle mounted .50 cal as upgrade or manned if a certain vet level is reached could be an option to.
It still wouldn't make a M36 a tank but it would not be completly defenseless against infantry anymore.

HVAP since vet 0, +15muni

Vet 1: +10% accuracy, -10% reload
Vet 2: +30% sight range, +20% accuracy, -10% reload
Vet 3: +160hp, +40% speed, +30% penetration

Something like this and I'm happy.

god forbid i need to micro my tank

It only have the same target size as a Panther(24) and terrible pathing. Good luck getting away from Shrek blobs(100% accuracy and penetration even at max range).

Of course you need to micro it, like every single USF unit at the same time. Now I let you show me how you micro it face to a panther with the blitz ability supported by a A-move LMG/shreck push (to not say blob )

I understand the M36 cost half of the Panther price, but why would it means
-1 no escape ability (no smoke)
-2 really low penetration rate
-3 no armor
-4 0 AI power
-5 slow to move, slow to turn slow to shot
-6 no defensive veterancy abilities
-7 no shreck or pak support and only doctrinal heavy lmg support
-8 Atgun low pen rate support

for
-1 long range fire (but low pen rate)
-2 high dammage value if pen

The two high values given to the TD are completely dependent to RNG gods.

As far as I know, when I turn down half of a panther life, it can still move and retreat and use his blitz ability and repair for free.
Same amount of damage done to a M36, no more TD and Fuel/MP investment lost.

So yes, it is a good asset if you know how to micro it and have some good favor from RNG gods, but that's all and any other TD in the game is far more secure to use.

You are just so wrong in every way shape and form.......

Learn how to use M36s they absolutely obliterate German armor when used correctly

M36 pisses me off so much. I can get it to complete it's job, it's just much much harder to do than all the other factions. The penetration against the most likely targets is about as good as a coin flip, literally. That fail video was cool, but I could make a better one. One of my favorite scenes was my 3 jacksons idle in a line and a lone panther comes into view. All 3 of these suckers bounce off the panther and the 1 shot the panther makes hits and penetrates.

The M36 has the health and armor of a light vehicle, with the acceleration of a heavy tank. It seems like every real advantage this thing would have in real life has been reversed in the game. It's sluggish, No better sight range, slow reload. The range and damage are the only redemption. I'd rather pay more fuel and get better acceleration/speed or a higher penetration value.

While you are right that CoH2 is not a simulation you are wrong in the statement that the 90 M3 is superiour to the 7,5 cm KwK 42.

Actually their anti armor performance is about the same at typical combat range of the time.

The one exeption would be the M304 HVAP projectile. A limited issue tungsten core APCR round. Comparable to the German Pzgr 40/42 only the effectiveness scales better with a larger caliber gun.

With standard issue APCBC/HE projectiles like the M82 or the Pzgr 39/42 the difference in penetration up to 1000 m is allmost nonexistent. At longer ranges the M3 starts to get a slight advantage.
The KwK 42 has a higher RoF and higher MV. Making it the superiour anti armor weapon of the two.
The M3 can use a much more effective HE shell. The M71 shell has allmost twice the projectile weight compared to the Sprgr 42.
The M3 is comparable to the German 8,8 cm KwK 36 in most regards. The KwK 42 was desigend to have the same or better anti armor performance than the latter up to 1000 m. So its no supprise the same is true for the former.

In a direct duel the M36 is allmost canceless against a Panther. Without HVAP it can't reliable penetrate the frontal armor of the Panther at combat distance while its own armor offers no protection against the Panthers gun.
Long range shots at the flanks preferable from hiding or ambush position are an effective tacti though...
this is how it works in CoH2. The M36 is not a duellist or knife fighter but a long range sniper. It needs distance and should disengage as soon at it is spotted and run if it takes return fire. Its a glass cannon.

First of all, the tank destroyer units had priority over armor in getting "limited" Ap rounds. So assume the m36s, which were produced for the very purpose of countering Panthers and Tigers, will have these available.

Second... if you answer is going to boil down to "historical" then let's double or triple the cost of all German heavy armor since they were in seriously short supply compared to allied units. And then those heavy tanks will have a chance during all engagements of getting a damaged or seriously damaged engine for no apparent reason. No Tiger company ever went into battle with more than 80% of their available combat strength, and often had much less available. And that was at the start of combat.

TL;DR - It's a game. If your answer is going to be "Historical" remember it cuts much worse against the axis. They did lose the war you know.

Historical is inspiration for this game, not a guidebook. We have soviets in western front and USA in Eastern. Lets lighten up on the history arguments, this is more game than history.

I don't know what Micro has to do when its 90mm gun fails to pen the front of some med tanks (or stug/Stug E) and the back of heavy tanks. Besides the requirement to open up a corridor behind a heavy tank just so you have more of a chance of its shot not to fail is not worth the hassle with its extremely slow rate of fire (That hurts it so bad when it misses, but hey a miss is a miss), its just more cost effective to use Shermans with AP.

Like Vaz said, it has a harder time to do its job compaired to the other factions for its Coin flip of its pen, I feel that could cost you the Jackson itself or the game altogether its not worth it.








Also, for the ones saying L2P/Micro better. Explane how you would "Micro it better."