For OKW shreks are a no brainer. As Ostheer I'm often a little leery of dumping 120 munitions into something that is more likely going to give my opponents shreks.
Bah I wish I could just get one on pgrens. Half the squad having shreks translates directly into 'drop as many shreks as possible for the enemy on retreat!' most of the time.
OKW, the root of most balance issues?
13 Dec 2014, 17:29 PM
#281
Posts: 2742
Strategic Territory Points Mod:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=604491510
Classic resource points!
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=604491510
Classic resource points!
13 Dec 2014, 18:30 PM
#282
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Shrecks are no brainer, because there is no decision making for OKW.
No choosing between upgrades, no vehicle upgrades, nothing.
OKW as a whole is a no brainer design, the only decision making is puma or medics first.
No choosing between upgrades, no vehicle upgrades, nothing.
OKW as a whole is a no brainer design, the only decision making is puma or medics first.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
13 Dec 2014, 18:34 PM
#283
Posts: 542
Ugh the handicapped economy thing again. Hasnt this been shown time and again as really no handicap or do we need to go over that again.
The only times I have seen people write about it in this forum it has been done by people without any further reasoning apart from "oh but OKW has ressource transfer" (which obviously just means you handicap your other ressource even further) or people who don't even understand basic mathematics and use wrong multiplicator to normalize costs. Or they assume that reduced teching costs makes up for everything because you apparently only ever build one vehicle per game. So please go ahead.
And yes it will change things.
Really? You think people won't just start (or rather continue) complaining about these things next?
-Volksgrenadiere Schreck blobs destroy tanks!
-Flak Headquarter damages tanks!
-Jagdtiger is too powerful!
-Stuka is too precise and kills units and is too difficult to destroy!
-Kübelwagen is ruining the game!
-Panzerfüsiliers are too strong! (depending on how heavy Obersoldaten nerf is more people might just switch to those)
-Puma is sniping vehicles, has more penetration than medium tanks in close range, has smoke launcher and is too fast!
-Panther has armor like a heavy tank and mobility like a medium tank and the machine guns kill infantry, my Jackson doesn't penetrate it with every hit!
-King Tiger has too much armor!
-King Tiger comes too early in team games with fuel drops from team mates!
That is even before we consider buffing some of the remaining units (as was suggested as a trade off for nerfing Obersoldaten). What you think will happen if we buff units not mentioned in this list yet?
-How can OKW start with such a powerful unit as Sturmpioniere? (remember how people complained about them in the past already?)
-Raketenwerfer comes at T0, is the cheapest anti tank gun and demolishes vehicles and it can even enter buildings, what is this?
-AA Halftrack is now as absurdly powerful as USF AA Halftrack, how am I meant to kill it without a Puma?
-Jagdpanzer IV is so much better than SU-85 and Jackson!
-leIG, well, just remember how people complained before it got nerfed
-Sturmtiger kills my whole army!
I will just skip the other doctrinal units.
13 Dec 2014, 18:36 PM
#284
Posts: 2070
overpowered things will be nerfed. It is silly to have an overpowered unit due to some handicap or whatnot (plus Obers aren't even affected by the resource penalty).
THis was the exact logic applied to the jagdtiger. It was OP and very frustrating for players o deal with because the unit shot through all sorts of shot blockers. In this case, the Jagdtiger is affected by the resource penalties, but this doesn't mean that its overpowered nature stayed.
The goal of the game developers, i am certain, is to have a fun and balanced game. THis applies to all units, and all factions.
THis was the exact logic applied to the jagdtiger. It was OP and very frustrating for players o deal with because the unit shot through all sorts of shot blockers. In this case, the Jagdtiger is affected by the resource penalties, but this doesn't mean that its overpowered nature stayed.
The goal of the game developers, i am certain, is to have a fun and balanced game. THis applies to all units, and all factions.
Axis doesn't have the best AT options in the game
13 Dec 2014, 18:56 PM
#285
Posts: 542
overpowered things will be nerfed. It is silly to have an overpowered unit due to some handicap or whatnot (plus Obers aren't even affected by the resource penalty).
THis was the exact logic applied to the jagdtiger. It was OP and very frustrating for players o deal with because the unit shot through all sorts of shot blockers. In this case, the Jagdtiger is affected by the resource penalties, but this doesn't mean that its overpowered nature stayed.
The goal of the game developers, i am certain, is to have a fun and balanced game. THis applies to all units, and all factions.
Obersoldaten are not affected by the resource penalty, of course they are not, they are just the consequence for the resource penalty. Relic made an extremely powerful infantry unit that OKW can still afford to buy with their handicapped munition and fuel income to compensate for everything OKW lacks in their other units to fight infantry. This may be absurd but this is what we have right now. Don't you think Relic normally would have already nerfed this unit to the ground seeing how many complaints there are about this unit since release of WFA?
13 Dec 2014, 19:25 PM
#286
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Don't you think Relic normally would have already nerfed this unit to the ground seeing how many complaints there are about this unit since release of WFA?
You mean... like ISU or JT for example?
Its op, the question is not 'if' but 'when'.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
13 Dec 2014, 19:26 PM
#287
Posts: 2070
Obersoldaten are not affected by the resource penalty, of course they are not, they are just the consequence for the resource penalty. Relic made an extremely powerful infantry unit that OKW can still afford to buy with their handicapped munition and fuel income to compensate for everything OKW lacks in their other units to fight infantry. This may be absurd but this is what we have right now. Don't you think Relic normally would have already nerfed this unit to the ground seeing how many complaints there are about this unit since release of WFA?
I'm not saying Obers shouldn't be good, they are 400 mp, but right now imo they are too good.
Sometimes Relic doesn't even care if there are tons of user complaints. Look at how many people asked for the SU76 to be viable again. This hasn't been changed for over a year
Axis doesn't have the best AT options in the game
13 Dec 2014, 19:31 PM
#288
Posts: 542
You mean... like ISU or JT for example?
Its op, the question is not 'if' but 'when'.
Good point, they are a bit slow and too hesitating with it but at least they do something about it every other patch. Not so with Obersoldaten. You would think they had the perfect opportunity when they nerfed all LMGs, but guess which LMG unit got the smallest nerf and only in exchange for a damage buff on the K98 to compensate?
As I said, I won't complain if they nerf Obersoldaten and overhaul the faction design. I just don't think either allied or OKW players will be happy if Relic just nerfs Obersoldaten and don't change anything about the overall faction design.
13 Dec 2014, 19:44 PM
#289
Posts: 1130
They are far too potent. They need to be adjusted. Even if they increase other units DPS if they for example turn out to break OKW. I even like the Kappatch that simply reduced the LMG and buffed the Kar98 resulting in the same squad DPS. This made them less rapid fire sniper rifles.
You continually say they are too potent but do not say why. or at least nothing that warrants a nerf. in your previous post you mentioned that they can take hmgs from the front. EVERY single lmg unit can take a lmg from the front even that dopey dp.
and killing light vehicles is nothing new as once again every lmg is good at it . and countering infantry is their speciality
horrida flamma bella
13 Dec 2014, 19:49 PM
#290
Posts: 351
Obers drastically over preform for price. There may have once been a reason for that in beta but no longer. The problem with a single weapon like the lmg-34 having such high dps is that not only do obers have great defensive stats, when every burst kills a model, they quickly reduce the dps out put of the squads they're fighting, further improving their survivability.
Obers are non doctrinal, easy to tech to, have no muni cost, have insane dps that can be done at max range, have great defensive stats compounded by vet and model sniping and are available to a faction with low up keep costs and no shortage of man power. It's fine that they are a strong unit, it's not fine that they are as strong as they currently are with almost no draw backs. They need to be adjusted.
Obers are non doctrinal, easy to tech to, have no muni cost, have insane dps that can be done at max range, have great defensive stats compounded by vet and model sniping and are available to a faction with low up keep costs and no shortage of man power. It's fine that they are a strong unit, it's not fine that they are as strong as they currently are with almost no draw backs. They need to be adjusted.
13 Dec 2014, 20:44 PM
#291
Posts: 1637
You continually say they are too potent but do not say why. or at least nothing that warrants a nerf. in your previous post you mentioned that they can take hmgs from the front. EVERY single lmg unit can take a lmg from the front even that dopey dp.
and killing light vehicles is nothing new as once again every lmg is good at it . and countering infantry is their speciality
You know I started to pull up the stats. But nah. You can compare them to Airborne yourself. By your logic Airborne must be UP o.O since Obers are obviously fine and barely cost more...
The PTRS's are fine as they are. Whenever i'm up against Guard Infantry, I always have to be careful with my vehicles or the Guards will completely destroy them. Good range, good damage and fairly cheap; if anything, the PTRS should nerfed since it's ridiculously good for the price. Even in the hands of Conscripts, the PTRS's are extremely potent.
13 Dec 2014, 21:33 PM
#292
Posts: 1130
You know I started to pull up the stats. But nah. You can compare them to Airborne yourself. By your logic Airborne must be UP o.O since Obers are obviously fine and barely cost more...
You dont have 2 as i really dont give a shit to unit comparison in general. i look how an unit performs generally in the faction. considering the faction has the worst baseline AI fuel and ammo generation it needs the obers.
The obers would be very op in the ostheer. but the ostheer is not the okw and the okw is not the usf and so forth.
horrida flamma bella
13 Dec 2014, 22:07 PM
#293
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
You dont have 2 as i really dont give a shit to unit comparison in general.
Or having a balanced game for that matter.
i look how an unit performs generally in the faction. considering the faction has the worst baseline AI fuel and ammo generation it needs the obers.
Sure it does, but not at that power level.
The obers would be very op in the ostheer. but the ostheer is not the okw and the okw is not the usf and so forth.
And LMG42 would be very op if conscripts had it.
But soviets are not Wehr and wehr is not space aliens.
Whatever you're smoking, it really kicked in good in your last line as its completely detached from the discussion and is not even making a logical argument.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
13 Dec 2014, 23:20 PM
#294
Posts: 4928
gokkel has a point though, people will just continue to complain about OKW until they can no longer fight. People complained about Ostheer since release and now look where they are, they are ridiculously disadvantaged against USF.
all you filthy hotchkiss lovers need to l2p #TeamPanzerIII
> Kriegsbeute Doctrine|Partisan Rework|British Infantry Rework|Soviet Assault Squad <
13 Dec 2014, 23:59 PM
#295
Posts: 2070
Basically Jaigen doesn't listen to anyone or logic. Jaigen lives in own world
Axis doesn't have the best AT options in the game
14 Dec 2014, 01:24 AM
#296
8 Posts: 2470
gokkel has a point though, people will just continue to complain about OKW until they can no longer fight. People complained about Ostheer since release and now look where they are, they are ridiculously disadvantaged against USF.
making EVERYONE satisfied would require a tiny player base. the trick is to make most people satisfied and address obvious issues. people complain about every faction right now but that doesn't mean it's balanced, it just means that there is something about each faction that someone doesn't like.
i could go on but i don't think i could even attempt to answer how to make things mostly balanced without writing pages.
14 Dec 2014, 01:52 AM
#297
Posts: 1130
Basically Jaigen doesn't listen to anyone or logic. Jaigen lives in own world
Ah excellent! Insults are being hurled and this thread will go down in flames and whatever you posted will not be taken seriously and thus effectively destroying your own thread. Well done mate i salute you for entertaining me//
horrida flamma bella
14 Dec 2014, 01:54 AM
#298
Posts: 1637
gokkel has a point though, people will just continue to complain about OKW until they can no longer fight. People complained about Ostheer since release and now look where they are, they are ridiculously disadvantaged against USF.
And people complained about USF and they got nerfed. And the things they nerfed were OP. And there are still nerfs they need. OP units need to be balanced. OP factions need to be balanced. Its a process as you know.
Having enough AT and AI in Infantry alone to beat an entire faction isnt balance. Its COH1 Ranger Blobs all over again. It really needs to be fixed. Otherwise what is OKWs disadvantage if they can do with manpower what takes other factions Fuel to do?
I LOVED OKW when they first came out. They were very challenging to play and rewarding. At the time Luchs was the only stinker and Panther wasnt a god but like the Jackson took skill to use properly. Then they buffed Muni and Made the Panther an A Move tank and it lost its appeal to me. Its a shame really.
Now that with Equal map control and conversion with a buffed Panther and Flak Truck they combined with Obers/Shrek blobs its just too much. Without Obers being Gods of all Long range DPS Shrek blobs will be more vulnerable. Or conversly if they removed Shreks teeth then Obers would be vulnerable. But as it stands OKW has too much in the Manpower/Muni part going for it.
The PTRS's are fine as they are. Whenever i'm up against Guard Infantry, I always have to be careful with my vehicles or the Guards will completely destroy them. Good range, good damage and fairly cheap; if anything, the PTRS should nerfed since it's ridiculously good for the price. Even in the hands of Conscripts, the PTRS's are extremely potent.
14 Dec 2014, 01:55 AM
#299
Posts: 1130
making EVERYONE satisfied would require a tiny player base. the trick is to make most people satisfied and address obvious issues. people complain about every faction right now but that doesn't mean it's balanced, it just means that there is something about each faction that someone doesn't like.
i could go on but i don't think i could even attempt to answer how to make things mostly balanced without writing pages.
actually no. Their aim should be a balanced game regardless what their customers want because some would totally fuck up balance because of their own biased vieuws. And i suspect you are one of them
That the majority holds a view doesn't are right.
horrida flamma bella
14 Dec 2014, 02:05 AM
#300
Posts: 1130
And people complained about USF and they got nerfed. And the things they nerfed were OP. And there are still nerfs they need. OP units need to be balanced. OP factions need to be balanced. Its a process as you know.
Safe for the broken suppression fire ability and the range of the flack track not much got changed.
Having enough AT and AI in Infantry alone to beat an entire faction isnt balance. Its COH1 Ranger Blobs all over again. It really needs to be fixed. Otherwise what is OKWs disadvantage if they can do with manpower what takes other factions Fuel to do?
i suspect you have a bad memory as rangers did shit against tanks in coh 1 as bazooka's really struggled penetration the front of even medium armor let alone heavies it was primarily an AI unit that came equipped with elite armor. that got further buffed with veterancy
I LOVED OKW when they first came out. They were very challenging to play and rewarding. At the time Luchs was the only stinker and Panther wasnt a god but like the Jackson took skill to use properly. Then they buffed Muni and Made the Panther an A Move tank and it lost its appeal to me. Its a shame really.
initially the okw where much more powerful then they are now as flacktracks where incredibly powerful back then. also obeers lmg's did 25% more dps
Now that with Equal map control and conversion with a buffed Panther and Flak Truck they combined with Obers/Shrek blobs its just too much. Without Obers being Gods of all Long range DPS Shrek blobs will be more vulnerable. Or conversly if they removed Shreks teeth then Obers would be vulnerable. But as it stands OKW has too much in the Manpower/Muni part going for it.
Too much for you perhaps. Not that this inst a potent combination but its far from unbeatable.
the issue is usually the allied player not using any combined arms or support weapons. since you are complaining about it constantly i would really love to a replay
horrida flamma bella
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