BALANCE FEEDBACK - USF 1v1 Post 100 Games of Automatch

SO looney, your TLDR is that the game is balanced in 1v1 and USF is fine ...?

Yeah it might sound strange, but the game is balanced on most points. The only things I find unbalanced are the tiger ace and the building speed of kubels.

I understand it's frustrating, i always played allies way more then Axis, which was a huge mistake. You just learn axis unit composition and weaknesses way to slow.
I'm finally getting the hang after playing 600 hours lol. It's all about anticipating and thinking quick when playing Us. Axis is stalling and punishing allies who take to high a risks. The whole US arsenal is medium range with almost every unit, while axis is long range, except when it's late game when you get jacksons or priest. You're army value has the potential of being higher then his all throughout the early game phases. (Early early game, early mid game, early late game)

The Axis aren't really made for anticipating, they need a balanced army to counter all threats which is a weakness against an army which has the potential of having more recourses and more map control which they can use to soft counter your army with numbers.

This is why axis sometimes uses gren spam to get that early map control hoping you won't out spam him. When you see that it forces you to play different and skip a tech/unit for countering him which you need to anticipate to notice. If you don't counter his spam with AI and let's say build an at gun or captain in stead you sacrifice a lot of manpower for getting units you can't use at that moment. Which of course you don't want because you give Axis map control and faster hard counters to your army. Axis can't play as US and vice versa.

The assymetrical balance is frustrating in new players eyes. It's because you need to know/learn which/when axis build units and what your quickest way to counter them are.

Edit: add me on steam if I can help you with anything. my in game is Looney

Looney...Rifles...have...the...WORST Veterancy. Not only does the DPS boost come at Vet 3 and not 2 like everybody else but it is worse. Same with the armor bonus that comes at Vet 2.

This means that at Vet 2 unlike LMG grens you wont get that nice Juicy 40% Accuracy boost and Grenade Range boost to quickly propel you to Vet 3.

I like to call Vet 2 Infantry phase as the Bleed phase of a 1v1. It happens mid game and this more then anything IMHO is why USF starts to sputter Mid game.

Then there is the Jackson.

I think if they fixed USF Vet and made it like ALL THE OTHERS I have no freaking clue why its not. I mean they are more expensive after all. Its not like Obers have weaker vet then Airborne "Just because".

And then Gave the Jackson enough Pen to reliably Penetrate a Panther Frontally say 75% of the time at Max range. This would then help against Heavy tanks too and Voila. No need to spam skill plane feel free to nerf away.

I agree with them having bad veterancy, but at that point in the game you have them equipped with lmg or bars which again gives them a soft counter faster then your opponent or at least to buy time for your howitzers to do the job.

Your Jackson arrives earlier then his Panther, remember that you had to build up some AT before you got the Jackson as well. When you combine your AT with a Jackson you can take the Panther or at least scare it away.

You're forgetting that the Panther has really bad AI, you can easily use infantry to scout ahead for it and then blast with your Jackson to scare it away.

If there's a p4 you can hard counter it with Jackson.

The fact that the Germans have more air power than Americans in a game set in 1944/1945 will never cease to amuse me.

The fact that the Germans have more air power than Americans in a game set in 1944/1945 will never cease to amuse me.

If we are to use real history to prove points, i would argue that only OKW represents the German army of 1944 / 1945. And guess what ? Their air power is almost non-existant (off maps are artillery only). Only the Ostheer has real air efficiency, and Ostheer represents the German army of 1942-1943, when Luftwaffe was at its prime.

PS: which brings us to the next point: OKW should never fight alongside OH, as well as Soviets never fought alongside USF in the war. But we as gamers, have to sacrifice some historic accuracy for the sake of gameplay. Whatever.

PS: which brings us to the next point: OKW should never fight alongside OH, as well as Soviets never fought alongside USF in the war. But we as gamers, have to sacrifice some historic accuracy for the sake of gameplay. Whatever.

It changes the whole dynamic as well in the game, forcing the 2 players to mix up there armies and helping each other out, which is pretty cool IMO.

When you see streamers like Siberian playing 2 vs 2 him and his partner mix there entire army up and work togheter. It's amazing to watch.

I definitely agree, even if i love history. There are things that must be set aside when we talk about a game. I for one, wouldn't even mind having mirror matches, or any mix of army versus any other army. It is a game after all.

Then there is the Jackson.

I think if they fixed USF Vet and made it like ALL THE OTHERS I have no freaking clue why its not. I mean they are more expensive after all. Its not like Obers have weaker vet then Airborne "Just because".

And then Gave the Jackson enough Pen to reliably Penetrate a Panther Frontally say 75% of the time at Max range. This would then help against Heavy tanks too and Voila. No need to spam skill plane feel free to nerf away.

nothing to say about the rifles with ur post, i think they are screwed because of lmg meta now, they would be very powerful if that was toned down and infantry fights are dragged out alot longer.

but yes, the jacksons, or rather, heavy tank counters. US and soviets need good armour counters that can actually defeat panthers and above frontally. panthers have just as much chance to hit jacksons/su85 as jacksons can hit them. that 10range difference doesnt mean anything in a prolonged fight since panthers can shrug off fire and smack jacksons/su85 stupid. get multiple panthers and they can stay alive almost indefinitely with fast repairs.

as playing a 2v2 on a ez8/t3485 strat, i have absolutely 0 counters to panthers other than to flank them. panthers being able to smoke, blitz and reverse as fast, its damn difficult to get a good flank on them. even if i do, they can run away and counter push me once their front armor faces me.

please increase penetration on t3485s at close ranges. getting in close with t3485s should be somewhat rewarded.

another thing is stuka, stop destroying the gun. blast the crew for all i care but stop destroying the gun, its no fun to get hardcountered by something you can barely react against with no chance to recover as well.

Wong this is what I am talking about:

Riflemen
Unlocks AT Rifle grenade
-23% received accuracy -20% weapon cooldown
+30% accuracy -50% ability recharge +25% grenade range

vs

Grenadiers

Vet 2 +25% Range on Rifle-grenade +40% Accuracy
Vet 3 +30% Armor -20% Cooldown -25% Recharge on Panzerfaust

Its like Relic tried to balance riflemen in a way that Grens veterancy will make them about equals. Even though riflemen pay for the addtional model through a higher manpower cost.

So Vet 2 to Vet 2 Grens with LMGs will be at an advantage against a vet 2 Rifle with an LMG.

Wong this is what I am talking about:

Riflemen
Unlocks AT Rifle grenade
-23% received accuracy -20% weapon cooldown
+30% accuracy -50% ability recharge +25% grenade range

vs

Grenadiers

Vet 2 +25% Range on Rifle-grenade +40% Accuracy
Vet 3 +30% Armor -20% Cooldown -25% Recharge on Panzerfaust

Its like Relic tried to balance riflemen in a way that Grens veterancy will make them about equals. Even though riflemen pay for the addtional model through a higher manpower cost.

So Vet 2 to Vet 2 Grens with LMGs will be at an advantage against a vet 2 Rifle with an LMG.

i might be worng but if rifle gets -23% received accuracy bonus, doesn't that equates to 1 / .77 = 1.2987?

so i guess only possible problem with rifle is their offensive vet bonus.

i might be worng but if rifle gets -23% received accuracy bonus, doesn't that equates to 1 / .77 = 1.2987?

so i guess only possible problem with rifle is their offensive vet bonus.

That and when the bonuses hit. Higher DPS leads to more vet. So rifles not only require more xp but don't gain the ability to generate vet faster.

Then nerf their early game efficiency, shall we ? They are very strong in the early game and the midgame, and all you guys are crying for, is to make them scale in the lategame, definitely not OP.

AT ALL.

OP could take a deep breath and write his latest post in a bit more constructive manner.

Wong this is what I am talking about:

So Vet 2 to Vet 2 Grens with LMGs will be at an advantage against a vet 2 Rifle with an LMG.

though you need more muninitions as US, don't rifles get a second lmg/bar which let's them beat grens?

Not to mention the bonuses they get with lmg; mines, sandbags etc.
With bars rifles just melt grens in medium range since they buffed them.

Playing as U.S. sucked when it first came out, it's got a pretty steep learning curve IMO.

Edit: and about Jacksons, when you get one, never lose it. When it gets to vet 3 it has insane dps and I think it can fight panthers head on. A vet 3 Jackson destroys a tiger extremely fast, from the rear in 3 hits. You can have 2 jacksons on the field as well when he get a tiger.

us got greatly buffed when they shorted all vehicle build times IMO.

Then nerf their early game efficiency, shall we ? They are very strong in the early game and the midgame, and all you guys are crying for, is to make them scale in the lategame, definitely not OP.

AT ALL.

Sure, then all we need to do is buff just about everything about USF late game, and things should be balanced.

though you need more muninitions as US, don't rifles get a second lmg/bar which let's them beat grens?

Not to mention the bonuses they get with lmg; mines, sandbags etc.
With bars rifles just melt grens in medium range since they buffed them.

Playing as U.S. sucked when it first came out, it's got a pretty steep learning curve IMO.

Edit: and about Jacksons, when you get one, never lose it. When it gets to vet 3 it has insane dps and I think it can fight panthers head on. A vet 3 Jackson destroys a tiger extremely fast, from the rear in 3 hits. You can have 2 jacksons on the field as well when he get a tiger.

us got greatly buffed when they shorted all vehicle build times IMO.

No they dont Get a second one. They can spend muni to buy a second one. And LMGs for Rifles are Doctrine specific same with sandbags etc. Otherwise they just get Mediocre BARs. And after spending 290 MP 120 Muni to compete with 240MP 60 muni is not cost effective. This is the opposite of how the war went with USF having more numerous and cheaper things while the Germans had less and more expensive things.

IRL doesnt make for a good argument to game balance but I think its kind of funny.

And lets not talk about how the Jackson is worse at actually Tank Destroying then the JP4 and the SU85. The Jackson is not good enough to be the top of the USF tech tree.

No they dont Get a second one. They can spend muni to buy a second one. And LMGs for Rifles are Doctrine specific same with sandbags etc. Otherwise they just get Mediocre BARs. And after spending 290 MP 120 Muni to compete with 240MP 60 muni is not cost effective.

And lets not talk about how the Jackson is worse at actually Tank Destroying then the JP4 and the SU85. The Jackson is not good enough to be the top of the USF tech tree.

Sorry meant buying a second one. Riflesquad + 1 lmg vs gren squad + lmg is equal footing. Add a Lmg and rifles beat grens not equal footing.

Jackson got way higher dps then su85? When it gains vet it gains alot of pen as well.

Jackson will lose vs panther head on. Though with it's larger reach it can shoot and run. Panther can chase Jackson? Of course, but not when you have a single riflesquad which kan nade a charging panther. 1 rifle Squad + Jackson = roughly the same cost as panther.

People underestimate a vetted Jackson it's really strong.

People underestimate a vetted Jackson it's really strong

Im not sure if youre trolling or serious - if you think a Jackson can compete with a Panther/Tiger. In a balanced game, firstly, the two will not exist in isolation. Second, nothing the USF has will apply ANY EFFECT on the Panther of note, while the Volks+Pschrek with Vet5 will annihilate the Jackson.

Rifles need BARs to stand even a remote chance vs the Vet5 Volks + Ober blobs post 20 mins, and even if you went Zookas, their laughable penetration vs Panther/Tiger.

Youre trying to construct a scenario, where the USF has multiple Jacksons, all of which he must micro, to:

A) Avoid the attack-move blobs of Vet5 Volks+PSchreks
B) The Raken AT Guns sitting behind the Tiger/Panther, again, auto attacking in their 'V'
C) Move to the rear of the Panther/Tiger without getting 2-shot by either

All this while the OKW player is simply controlling his one solo unit of invincible destruction.

Yes, you can use Airborne and save for a Strafe for 240 AMMO, which i guarantee wont kill the Tiger/Panther by itself and you have no chance of doing a second one, with all the ammo you will be spending on BARs/Zookas/Grenades.

Assuming ALL THE STAR ALIGN and you do kill the Tank, the losses on USF will be so far beyond the resources the OKW wouldve lost, its near impossible to then comeback into the game. Especially, since the OKW can switch to a complete Infantry based army without changing any tech or structures - and your Jacksons can then be worth crap v/s the Volks+Ober blob, which will decimate your Rifles+Jacksons.

Seriously, post 3 replays of you beating OKW, while killing a Tiger/Panther with your Jacksons - Automatch, hopefully a reasonably high rank.

Seriously, post 3 replays of you beating OKW, while killing a Tiger/Panther with your Jacksons - Automatch, hopefully a reasonably high rank.

I'm really trying to help you here, anyway let me search the vault.

http://www.coh2.org/replay/27578/against-turtle-okw

This one is pretty good, it's against a true bunkered in OKW, when you see the play you just know OKW is just stalling for KT giving you enough time for counters. You can see when the KT arrives I have a Jackson, which scares away the KT everytime, when I have 2 it can't even come close anymore. (jumped up to rank 60 with this one)

http://www.coh2.org/replay/27579/1-jackson-vs-3-tigers

This one is really late game, 1 Jackson killing 3 charging tigers in a large open map, enjoy.
Yes, I say it again, 1 jackson vs 3 tigers. (was rank 180 with this one I think)

http://www.coh2.org/replay/27581/research-tough-game

This one is against Stephen, though he played better and should have won the game, he kinda made the mistake of building 2 panthers when they're not really good against inf. Anyway 1 jackson killing 2 panthers. Such a hectic game, could not keep up with the micro at all!

As a bonus
http://www.coh2.org/replay/27582/counter-to-counter

Against the number 5 of 2 vs 2, staying 1 step ahead of your opponent. Keeping your US army alive really matters. My partner at that game took on tigers with 2 jacksons, really great game.

No offense to any of these people, they really played great, I just wanted to show you that you can win as US, you just need to figure out counters.