Am I having deja vu or didn't this exact same thread get posted before?
Either way, I wouldn't mind the Stuka zu Fuss getting faster vet, since it does need to kill quite a lot just to get vet 1, particularly if used in 1v1s, but only if it's vulnerability was increased. It's too durable for what type of unit it is.
Relic, please adjust Vet gain on the Stuka zu Fuss.
14 Nov 2014, 21:25 PM
#21
Posts: 655
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A Fallen Scrub
14 Nov 2014, 21:37 PM
#22
Posts: 432
The priest has similar durability to the stuka but horrible mobility.
Yes but it also has incredible range and sits often very safe deep behind Allied lines, The Stuka, not as much.
Also economically the Stuka has far more opportunity cost than the Priest does. Especially since OKW cannot build caches to modify income and to convert comes at a great cost of whatever resource is being converted.
14 Nov 2014, 21:46 PM
#23
15 Posts: 1970 | Subs: 5
honestly I don't know I'm basing that purely off of a comment I vaguely remember brad making one time.
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14 Nov 2014, 21:51 PM
#24
15 Posts: 1970 | Subs: 5
Yes but it also has incredible range and sits often very safe deep behind Allied lines, The Stuka, not as much.
Also economically the Stuka has far more opportunity cost than the Priest does. Especially since OKW cannot build caches to modify income and to convert comes at a great cost of whatever resource is being converted.
Both very valid points, but generally a panther or puma can successfully take out a priest on a flanking attempt a lot more easily than allied medium armor short of T-34/85s, at least in my experience. Smoke or blitz certainly help a lot with this as well.
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14 Nov 2014, 21:55 PM
#25
Posts: 432
Both very valid points, but generally a panther or puma can successfully take out a priest on a flanking attempt a lot more easily than allied medium armor short of T-34/85s, at least in my experience. Smoke or blitz certainly help a lot with this as well.
I find that a T-34/76 is a death sentence to my Stuka unless a miracle occurs.
As for the Priest, if it's properly supported either with AT infantry, ATG's or other vehicles to support it, it often should be fine right?
14 Nov 2014, 22:23 PM
#26
15 Posts: 1970 | Subs: 5
Consider light vehicles though. If a puma makes it to a katyusha, it will destroy it in one shot plus a burst from the coaxial MG. It has a decent chance of escaping unpunished since the allies have little time to react. If a stuart makes it to a stuka, it will have to shoot it four times, I think? Someone should correct me if I'm wrong. It's definitely a lot more than one time. This gives axis supporting units a lot more time to react. The stuka may or may not survive, the stuart almost certainly won't.
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14 Nov 2014, 22:47 PM
#27
Posts: 656
I'm sure it's been posted before but here is the health of all the non doctrinal arty units:
katyusha: 160
panzerwerfer: 160
stuka: 320
As you can see the stuka has double the health of the kat or pwerfer. In fact it has the same health (though not armor) as the T70 or stuart. It takes 4 shots from a stuart to kill a stuka and 8 from a T70.
If you want to include the priest in that list then it also has 320 health and takes 3 shots from a puma to destroy.
Regarding veterancy I'm fairly certain it is just a function of unit cost. Health has nothing to do with it.
katyusha: 160
panzerwerfer: 160
stuka: 320
As you can see the stuka has double the health of the kat or pwerfer. In fact it has the same health (though not armor) as the T70 or stuart. It takes 4 shots from a stuart to kill a stuka and 8 from a T70.
If you want to include the priest in that list then it also has 320 health and takes 3 shots from a puma to destroy.
Regarding veterancy I'm fairly certain it is just a function of unit cost. Health has nothing to do with it.
14 Nov 2014, 22:48 PM
#28
Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8
Again, I could be wrong but I think vet gained is proportional to the ratio of damage inflicted to the inflicting unit's health.
Close, but not quite.
Its a cost relation-more expensive units will vet quicker attacking more expensive targets.
This is why JT takes ages to vet plinking on T34s while shrecked volks vet to 5 in no time against anything with wheels or tracks.
There is also flat 20% bonus to base units vet value for each vet star it gets.
Maybe it's 'cause the Axis players aren't a bunch of forum crybabies, and they keep their cool and fight the uphill battle, unlike some of their "allied" counterparts.
14 Nov 2014, 23:03 PM
#29
Posts: 432
Consider light vehicles though. If a puma makes it to a katyusha, it will destroy it in one shot plus a burst from the coaxial MG. It has a decent chance of escaping unpunished since the allies have little time to react. If a stuart makes it to a stuka, it will have to shoot it four times, I think? Someone should correct me if I'm wrong. It's definitely a lot more than one time. This gives axis supporting units a lot more time to react. The stuka may or may not survive, the stuart almost certainly won't.
That may just be RNG playing against you, as I've had to take at least 2-shots to kill a Katyusha with a Puma or up to three (near misses included)
Also Stukas are very very vulnerable to counter battery barrages and surprisingly, very vulnerable to PTRS'. (Or so I've noticed)
Also are you just calculating the Stuarts base cannon damage, or are you including its alternate firing modes that give it more of a punch while disabling the oppositions vehicles. Stuarts aren't vehicle hunters, they are just anti-light vehicle, anti-infantry and most importantly, mechanized support.
They are kind of designed to be used in conjunction with other units. Hence why a Stuart + Captain would be a legitimate threat to even a panther if well micro'd
But that's not what this thread is about, this thread is about the Stuka and Veterancy, something I think Relic should really look into.
14 Nov 2014, 23:11 PM
#30
1 Posts: 3052 | Subs: 15
I was SO disapointed when i compstomped(even then it took a very LONG time.) my way to Vet4 with it only to see that the vet 4 barrage is just a copypasted incendiary barrage from the soviets.
15 Nov 2014, 00:26 AM
#31
8 Posts: 2470
seriously? that's fucking amazing. (not for allies)
15 Nov 2014, 01:12 AM
#32
Posts: 503
as far as i remember:
the exp needed for vet 1 : 2x MP cost + 10x Fuel cost = Exp value
its double for vet 2, quadruple for vet 3, and i have no clue about vet 4+5, but id say it should be 8x/16x that value
vet gained is: xp value of shot at unit / max hp of that unit * dmg inflicted
ill check that again though. in the last couple of weeks i was wrong more often than id like to admit
the exp needed for vet 1 : 2x MP cost + 10x Fuel cost = Exp value
its double for vet 2, quadruple for vet 3, and i have no clue about vet 4+5, but id say it should be 8x/16x that value
vet gained is: xp value of shot at unit / max hp of that unit * dmg inflicted
ill check that again though. in the last couple of weeks i was wrong more often than id like to admit
15 Nov 2014, 01:23 AM
#33
4 Posts: 1194 | Subs: 1
Hmm, Stuka definitely needs some vet changes, but if we move the incendiary strike to vet 1/2, I fell it may be OP. It may just be RNG for me, but I feel like the stuka fire barrage does a shitload more damage when it hits than an offmap incendiary strike.
15 Nov 2014, 02:23 AM
#34
8 Posts: 2470
i have never seen the stuka one but the russian incendiary strike does a shit ton of damage over a huge area. the OKH incendiary bomb is very similar.
15 Nov 2014, 02:43 AM
#35
Posts: 503
im pretty sure the stuka does more damage, because it shoots 6 fire rockets that tend to overlap and i do believe the fire damage (at least the crits) do stack. how many "rockets" is the russian one again? 3 isnt it?
15 Nov 2014, 02:47 AM
#36
Posts: 1248
If that were true, then wouldn't snipers earn insane vet from killing Shocktroops or Paratroopers? Just a thought in any case.
I looked at your page there, I don't necessarily agree with changing the Stuka's barrage pattern into a circle. It was designed with the intent of a creeping barrage in this game, and I don't see any sense in changing it now. Especially since all strafing runs were changed to be comparable.
Besides that, as I said in an earlier post, it feels like the Stuka was ninja nerfed for its barrage to be less exact along its line and more spread out.
As for its HP, I don't really see what the problem with its HP is, it's an armored halftrack right? It only takes 2-3 shots of a Bazooka or two shots of a tank to kill it. Or One-shot from an ISU-152 right?
In example, it takes at least 2-4 barrages from a Luchs to kill a Katyusha IIRC.
I think it is fair considering the very significant manpower and fuel investment OKW player needs to acquire and use such a potent piece of equipment. Though I guess if vet changes are made it could be considered.
its like the ostheer halftrack
15 Nov 2014, 03:34 AM
#37
Posts: 503
its like the ostheer halftrack
funny thing is: it looks like a modded 250 to me but has the armor of the 251
15 Nov 2014, 04:23 AM
#38
Posts: 432
funny thing is: it looks like a modded 250 to me but has the armor of the 251
It's definitely a 251, the 250 had an open back.
15 Nov 2014, 04:24 AM
#39
Posts: 503
It's definitely a 251, the 250 had an open back.
yeah i got the numbers wrong, didnt I?
edit: i checked and ofc it was the 251 who had the wurfrahmen (as you already mentioned), BUT the 250 had a closed back, too(to protect the soldiers being transported/operating the weaponry)
15 Nov 2014, 04:41 AM
#40
Posts: 432
yeah i got the numbers wrong, didnt I?
edit: i checked and ofc it was the 251 who had the wurfrahmen (as you already mentioned), BUT the 250 had a closed back, too(to protect the soldiers being transported/operating the weaponry)
In this game, it is specifically the open back variant of the 250 Halftrack designed for troop transport.
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