The imbalance between Allied and Axis Infantry Anti-tank

for cost, yeah mediums stack more damage quickly. they also die faster though.

My last words on the allied and axis tanks before going back to the main topic. The Panzer4 is a little bit more expensive than the T34 but is a lot better in he AT department and after the MG upgrade, does a lot better in the AI department. T34/76 is so blehhh. The main gun is so rng dependent.


ANyways back on the main topic. THe fact that VOlks get great vet bonuses and can carry schrecks is over the top. It is difficult to counter a mass of schreck volks with a balanced combined arms force. Unless you get a lucky mortar strike or have shock troopers, pushing back the schreck volk horde is going to be hard.

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Its totally easy to counter a schreck blob, especially with combined arms. Maxim/50 cal suppresses them, Cons/Rifles then force the retreat.

This issue really appeared when Relic removed the Munition penalty to OKW faction. I'm fine with that because it was a too simple way of balancing faction reducing a lot any strategy possible with OKW.

So shreck itself is maybe not the root cause of the problem. The problem probably more lies in the lack of ammo sink for OKW (designed for the old meta) that let him build as much shreck as he wants today without suffering any gap in other areas.

I mean, if a OKW player wants to go for full shreck squads, why not, but in that case his AI power should be lower, as for any other factions, Ostheer and USF (SU is a different concept).
Ostheer spamming shrecks will not be able to spam lMGs
USF spamming zooks will not be able to spam BARs
SU need a dedicated squad to perform the same so it is slighly different.

So, keep the shrecks on Volks but add an ammo cost to any other AI force upgrade: Obers,Panzer Grenadiers,falls. around 90/100 ammo per upgrade since they are really powerful. Or 2 upgrades of 50 ammo that partially increase squads effectiveness.
So a player who goes for shreck blob is counter-able with small arms fire since he doesn't have enough resources to upgrade his AI squads.

At the end, OKW players would have to make a decision between AI and AT softcounters. And probably be less able to rely on blobs only. This would increase the midgame duration for sure, because to balance his lack of AI or AT soft-counter, He'll have to invest fuel and start to combine small arms with armored vehicle and tanks, so retarding the incoming of the KT.

Why people think that okw shreck blob is soooo dangerous compared to an ostheer shreck blob?! 3 shreck pzgren squads can deliver much more damage than 4 or even 5 shreck volks squads, AND THEY ARE CHEAPER!

The only reason for wich you don't see this that often is the fact that Ostheer has alternatives. But please let me know what other alternative has OKW? Raketenwerfer? Don't make me laugh.

Further, what's the average time in which ostheer can build a schreck blob and what's the average time in which okw can build a schreck blob? Remember ostheer has no penalties, and if it wants a schreck blob it just have to keep one amo point being able in the same time to build CACHES. You know, those things that can be built by any other army but OKW.

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Its totally easy to counter a schreck blob, especially with combined arms. Maxim/50 cal suppresses them, Cons/Rifles then force the retreat.

maxim? it has no aoe suppression so it is not an effective counter v. blobs. sov just lack aoe suppression device which i think it-s a whole new big problem.

50 cal works until obers.

Why people think that okw shreck blob is soooo dangerous compared to an ostheer shreck blob?! 3 shreck pzgren squads can deliver much more damage than 4 or even 5 shreck volks squads, AND THEY ARE CHEAPER!

The only reason for wich you don't see this that often is the fact that Ostheer has alternatives. But please let me know what other alternative has OKW? Raketenwerfer? Don't make me laugh.

Further, what's the average time in which ostheer can build a schreck blob and what's the average time in which okw can build a schreck blob? Remember ostheer has no penalties, and if it wants a schreck blob it just have to keep one amo point being able in the same time to build CACHES. You know, those things that can be built by any other army but OKW.

Don't get them started, or they'll whine for nerfs towards Ostheer PGrens.

OKW were designed to be resource-starved. This meant 66 percent muni and fuel income. Out of the blue, Relic switched ammo income to 100 percent due to OKW "not being able to use all their abilities". THis was later toned down to 80 percent ammo due to OKW dominating in team games (which they still do).

I find myself not struggling to arm all my volks squads with schrecks. This is basically the only thing you will ever upgrade as OKW, other thank tank MG gunners, and perhaps the occasional grenade. Schrecks are really he obvious upgrade for Volks just like LMGs for the Grenadier squad.

Giving more muni sinks would be interesting, but i doubt they would be as enticing as the schreck upgrade. It won't help if you give an OP upgrade to deter people from getting schrecks, as OKW unit veterancy makes the unit solid already.

I would agree on lmg34 upgrade cost in amo for obers with one condition: shreck amo price decrease to 60 amo. You know, half of the price that you pay for pzgrens upgrade (2 shrecks). That way, we make peace with maths also.

Don't get them started, or they'll whine for nerfs towards Ostheer PGrens.

Lol, yeah, I'm sure they will start complaining about that too. Unfortunatelly for them, ostheer isn't now in such a good spot. It's one of the hardest factions to play, besides USF.

OT, i think Exsile idea is the best: leaving Volk's shrecks as they are, but make other powerful AI squads require ammo upgrades. So the Oberkommando player has to chose whether he plays with an AT blob with worst than now AI, or an AI blob with worst than now AT, or a mediocre mix of both (this would reflect more closely the choices of players of the other factions).

This issue really appeared when Relic removed the Munition penalty to OKW faction. I'm fine with that because it was a too simple way of balancing faction reducing a lot any strategy possible with OKW.

So shreck itself is maybe not the root cause of the problem. The problem probably more lies in the lack of ammo sink for OKW (designed for the old meta) that let him build as much shreck as he wants today without suffering any gap in other areas.

Actually Panzerschrecks for OKW used to be for Sturmpioneers, but Relic changed it at the last minute and months of OKW testing went out the window. OKW used to be too vulnerable to light vehicle rushes and the lack of fuel meant they couldn't win an attrition war with USF or Soviet. So among other things, Panzerschrecks were given to Volksgrenadiers who were much cheaper and had a bigger presence. It wasn't a huge deal until the ammo changes, but now OKW can spam them too easily.

Since then the meta has changed, and the flaws in the quick decision to give Panzerschrecks to Volks are showing. Rather than reduce the Munitions Income again, I think our best bet would be the original tried and true concept: Give Panzerschrecks back to the Sturmpioneers. Also, have the starting Sturmpioneer squad start with a free Panzerschreck, which both reduces his early-game AI firepower, and grants him a shield against the fast M3 until he can get on his feet.

Actually Panzerschrecks for OKW used to be for Sturmpioneers, but Relic changed it at the last minute and months of OKW testing went out the window. OKW used to be too vulnerable to light vehicle rushes and the lack of fuel meant they couldn't win an attrition war with USF or Soviet. So among other things, Panzerschrecks were given to Volksgrenadiers who were much cheaper and had a bigger presence. It wasn't a huge deal until the ammo changes, but now OKW can spam them too easily.

Since then the meta has changed, and the flaws in the quick decision to give Panzerschrecks to Volks are showing. Rather than reduce the Munitions Income again, I think our best bet would be the original tried and true concept: Give Panzerschrecks back to the Sturmpioneers. Also, have the starting Sturmpioneer squad start with a free Panzerschreck, which both reduces his early-game AI firepower, and grants him a shield against the fast M3 until he can get on his feet.

Sounds like an interesting solution. I'm all for it.

Which would again, render Volks wholly useless.

I don't think schrecks for sturmpios it's a good solution. There are to much main tasks that have to be carried by just one unit type. Build, repair, medium AI counter, medium armor counter, mine planter, mine sweeper. What volks will be for? Even if you give them fausts, okw cannot sustain the amo consumption rate that will emerge from this change unless it would receive 100% amo income again.

Which would again, render Volks wholly useless.

I'm of the belief that Volks should be able to upgrade to automatic weapons, and maybe even start with a couple. They wouldn't be strong weapons, because Volks aren't shock infantry, but they'll help keep them relevant (Conscripts deserve the same tbh, but that's another story). This could also unlock Panzerfausts for them. And with Panzerschrecks out of the Volksgrenadier's hands, ammo is free to be set back at 100%, provided they also fix the conversion rates for Ammo -> Fuel, which were also broken by higher ammo income.

Woa guys, you just want to change the game here when a simple solution of balancing ammo cost is probably sufficient at a first try.

There is no need to give new weapons to OKW, thats just going to break even more the game balance.

JohnnyB asks why we should fear a Volks blob of shreck more than pzgren?
Because pzgren cost lot more to reinforce
Because pzgren have less vet capabilities
Because pzgren come later and usually don't pickup their shreck already vet1 or 2.

Because nobody cares about a pure volks shreck blob, not more than a pure pzgren shreck blob. People actually do care about a volks shreck blob mixed with a (at your choice) Obers/falls/pzfusillers.

But all of that could be fine, if Obers/falls/pzfusillers have a cost added to their powerful weapons, as any other specialized unit.

Panzerfusiliers do pay for their G43's though. Obersoldaten would need a manpower decrease if their LMG comes separate, and Fallschirmjagers would also need a cost reduction.

What if we make Obers pay for their lmg and reduce cost for volks' shrecks? This way, as someone said here before, an OKW player is obliged to chose between having a powerfull AI infantry or a good AT solution. If you want okw pay 90 amo for lmg 34 and 90 fuel for schreck, then 100% amo income is mandatory.

why would you decrease the cost of schrecks then? its obviously a no brainer upgrade, you get it if you can. Obers are also gamebraking units, especialy in the combination with super accurate schreck that dont miss a single time on max distance during the entire game. if you reduce the cost it would be almost the same, even worse. they would get it sooner, it would maybe and just maybe prolong the time for ober LMG-s.

Am I reading this right? Did you just try to say medium tanks have more firepower than heavy tanks? The only heavy tank lacking firepower is the KV-1, and the KV-8 if we're talking AT ability, though it's #1 if we're talking about AI ability.

you can have 2 medium tank guns for each heavy one. the soviet sherman 85 and e8 have enough penetration that they can penetrate the heavies and overwhelm them. the panther has no issue with is2 but struggles against the e8 and 85.