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russian armor

The imbalance between Allied and Axis Infantry Anti-tank

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27 Dec 2014, 06:16 AM
#341
avatar of Omega_Warrior

Posts: 2561

The more I play against OKW, the more I find the idea of removing or nerfing Schrecks unappealing.
OKW has enough of a problem as is in dealing with medium armor, and I have not seen a Volks/Ober blob ever being a problem at a solid level of play. Since OKW has no nondoctrinal snare, you can pretty much run over/push around 2 squads of Volks with a medium largely risk free provided decent micro. In general, counterblobs/Allied elite infantry or really any sort of AOE weapons deal with Volks fairly easily.
27 Dec 2014, 07:09 AM
#342
avatar of Nuclear Arbitor
Patrion 28

Posts: 2470

um, they have su-chu/tm-35s... they're not an infantry based snare but they're a damn good snare, very effective, and almost as cheap as a faust/at nade.

i'm really not sure what their issue with medium armour is either; both the puma and the JPIV are strong, although the latter is expensive.
27 Dec 2014, 07:24 AM
#343
avatar of wandererraven

Posts: 353

Puma have 50 sight range and 50 gun Range is good for S&D armor car
27 Dec 2014, 17:13 PM
#344
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 1225

Er, no offence, but thats a lot of theorycrafting. Pumas are nice against T70s, M20s and the like and with solid micro can be a nuisance to vanilla T34s and Shermans. They are much too fragile to be considered reliable tho. 85s, E8s, M4Cs etc eat them for breakfast anyways. JPs are overpriced supplementary units that are actually more useful against IS2s and Jacksons than they are against mediums - just like ie. the SU 85 is way more useful against the Tiger than it is against the Panther or even a PIV. The one OKW unit that can stand on its own against advanced Allied mediums is the Panther - well and the KT.
28 Dec 2014, 01:22 AM
#345
avatar of Nuclear Arbitor
Patrion 28

Posts: 2470

medium tanks are only threats to pumas when the get into firing range. you can prevent that by having supplementary defenses such as AT guns, infantry AT, and mines.

JPIVS and SU-85s are incredibly effective against mediums as long as they have said supplements. the JPIV is expensive but it's very powerful.
28 Dec 2014, 02:20 AM
#346
avatar of AsunaKirigaya

Posts: 18

regarding the asymtrical balance...

german players still claim that everything is balanced because the allied equip and tanks are cheaper. yes they are cheaper but they are not cheap enough that you could "outproduce" the germans. even with the t34 cheaper you will still be able to field only 1 t34 while they can field 1 panzer 4. and with the panther its even more horrible. 2 t34 are needed to kill a panther but still the panther will win sometimes. the 2 t34 cost 200 fuel while the panther costs 175. so the panther is cheaper then 2 t34 but still can kill both of them sometimes.

and in late game allies wouldnt have an advantage in numbers because of the pop cap. most of the time both sites can field the same amount of infantry and tanks. and in such a situation the axis will always win.

so the current situation is, that the allies will only win if they are more skilled. on an even skill level the german players will win.

to balance the game completely and stop any more balance discussion they would have to reduce the cost and popcap of every allied unit that they would be able to win against the axis with superior numbers, ofc not that much that they would win everytime.



i hope you understand my bad english lol
28 Dec 2014, 02:30 AM
#347
avatar of MarcoRossolini

Posts: 1042

^^^ absolutely right.

There's some core balance issues in the game which have been since release and are stupendous in their imbalance.

Such as - who thought it'd be a good idea to have Soviets only able to use 2 of their buildings?

Why are all Anti-tank weapons on one side markedly inferior to the opposition?

Why does one side get extremely good infantry AT weaponry and the other does not?
28 Dec 2014, 03:46 AM
#348
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 1225

Jesus H. Christ on a pushbike guys. I presume you've not seen the recent tourney? Lots of good games there, and then there is this to consider:
http://www.coh2.org/topic/28483/tournament-statistics-and-no-pretty-graphs-deal-with-it

Its a fairly large statistical sample, to sum it up: The notion that Allies would be facing an uphill battle in the balance department is patently untrue. Ostheer is at present no longer competitively viable after several cumulative patches. USF/SOV balance vs OKW appears pretty reasonable either way.
Edit: Marco, as to why, well, ain't that obvious? I might as well ask as to why ie. only one faction (Soviets) has useful snipers, why only the Allied factions have useful artillery, why only OKW can truck push, why only Sovs/USF can pull light vehicle timing pushes, why only one faction (OH) has no elite infantry, etc.. These factors are weighed against each other, the factions operate fundamentally differently, and that makes balancing obviously delicate.
28 Dec 2014, 04:31 AM
#349
avatar of Napalm

Posts: 1595 | Subs: 2

Shocking news but the 1v1 game mode does not accurately represent the entire gaming population. Way cool statics non the less.
28 Dec 2014, 07:35 AM
#350
avatar of ☭ Калашникова ☭

Posts: 322

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Dec 2014, 04:31 AMNapalm
Shocking news but the 1v1 game mode does not accurately represent the entire gaming population. Way cool statics non the less.


This is very true, As in a matter of fact the majority play 4's.
None the less Ostheer is probably the weakest faction right now.
They are plagued with a slow and expensive tech structure and high teching costs.
In addition to that half there roster has problems.
28 Dec 2014, 07:51 AM
#351
avatar of MarcoRossolini

Posts: 1042


Edit: Marco, as to why, well, ain't that obvious? I might as well ask as to why ie. only one faction (Soviets) has useful snipers, why only the Allied factions have useful artillery, why only OKW can truck push, why only Sovs/USF can pull light vehicle timing pushes, why only one faction (OH) has no elite infantry, etc.. These factors are weighed against each other, the factions operate fundamentally differently, and that makes balancing obviously delicate.



Some of the things you've just asserted are hilariously untrue though.

Ostheer has no elite infantry? What about Pgrens?

only Sovs/USF can pull light vehicle timing pushes? What about the Kubel? Or more seriously, Puma or Flakhalftrack.

Only one side has useful artillery? What about the Stuka zu Fuss?

Indeed, half of what you've said there is at the root of many faction's balance issues (OKW truck pushing, Why do we need it? It's the height of unrealistic stupidity)
28 Dec 2014, 08:44 AM
#352
avatar of NinjaWJ

Posts: 2070

regarding the asymtrical balance...

german players still claim that everything is balanced because the allied equip and tanks are cheaper. yes they are cheaper but they are not cheap enough that you could "outproduce" the germans. even with the t34 cheaper you will still be able to field only 1 t34 while they can field 1 panzer 4. and with the panther its even more horrible. 2 t34 are needed to kill a panther but still the panther will win sometimes. the 2 t34 cost 200 fuel while the panther costs 175. so the panther is cheaper then 2 t34 but still can kill both of them sometimes.

and in late game allies wouldnt have an advantage in numbers because of the pop cap. most of the time both sites can field the same amount of infantry and tanks. and in such a situation the axis will always win.

so the current situation is, that the allies will only win if they are more skilled. on an even skill level the german players will win.

to balance the game completely and stop any more balance discussion they would have to reduce the cost and popcap of every allied unit that they would be able to win against the axis with superior numbers, ofc not that much that they would win everytime.



i hope you understand my bad english lol



+1
28 Dec 2014, 10:24 AM
#353
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

Simple question for guys who think that game is balanced and OKW has bad early - game.
How to counter Stormpio + Kubel + Truck pushing out of the cover.
Ta da! #balance #earlygamealliesadvantage
28 Dec 2014, 10:29 AM
#354
avatar of Katitof

Posts: 17914 | Subs: 8

Simple question for guys who think that game is balanced and OKW has bad early - game.
How to counter Stormpio + Kubel + Truck pushing out of the cover.
Ta da! #balance #earlygamealliesadvantage


Semoisky summer fun.
I counter that by not going where he camps and praying he is an idiot. So far worked once.
28 Dec 2014, 10:35 AM
#355
avatar of Australian Magic

Posts: 4630 | Subs: 2

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Dec 2014, 10:29 AMKatitof


Semoisky summer fun.
I counter that by not going where he camps and praying he is an idiot. So far worked once.


Kubels locking down bridges :foreveralone:
28 Dec 2014, 10:51 AM
#356
avatar of Mr. Someguy

Posts: 4928

Why does one side get extremely good infantry AT weaponry and the other does not?


Because only one side had them. On a scale I'd say it was Panzerfaust -> Panzerschreck -> Bazooka. No mention for PTRS, it's not even in the same league...

The balance portion of it is how to make it fair while still feeling authentic, it's possible, but Relic have yet to nail it.
28 Dec 2014, 11:01 AM
#357
avatar of mrako

Posts: 107

To save some space I agree with Asuna. Well said.
28 Dec 2014, 11:14 AM
#358
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 1225

jump backJump back to quoted post28 Dec 2014, 04:31 AMNapalm
Shocking news but the 1v1 game mode does not accurately represent the entire gaming population. Way cool statics non the less.

I'll spare you the "shocking news" part, but 1s and to a lesser degree 2s are all that matter in terms of balance and therefore actual competition. That is a statement of fact, btw, not necessarily an endorsement, even though I personally prefer it that way. 3s and 4s have their very own rules and of course demand some strategic thinking and micro as well, however, its pretty generic RTS fare and has little to do with the facets that make the CoH franchise idiosyncratically attractive. Fact is, you cannot balance a game like CoH for both 1s and 4s, and Relic has obviously chosen to attach priority to the former. Suits me, but I can understand its frustrating for guys that have other preferences.
28 Dec 2014, 11:33 AM
#359
avatar of ☭ Калашникова ☭

Posts: 322


I'll spare you the "shocking news" part, but 1s and to a lesser degree 2s are all that matter in terms of balance and therefore actual competition. That is a statement of fact, btw, not necessarily an endorsement, even though I personally prefer it that way. 3s and 4s have their very own rules and of course demand some strategic thinking and micro as well, however, its pretty generic RTS fare and has little to do with the facets that make the CoH franchise idiosyncratically attractive. Fact is, you cannot balance a game like CoH for both 1s and 4s, and Relic has obviously chosen to attach priority to the former. Suits me, but I can understand its frustrating for guys that have other preferences.


So, just taking a quick look at live games on any given day as in right now at time of writing this 48 1v1's vs 68 4v4. That is 96 1v1 players in games vs 544.

Lets take a look at 3's vs 2's. 72 games, 288 players on 2's
42 games of 3's at 252 players.

And finally custom games.. if anyone cares. 247 individual games up at time of writing.

This is not a uncommon occurrence either. I notice similar stats every time i log in.
But hey lets focus balance around 1's. Even if it is the mode with the lowest player base.
This is a very fun game. But for exclusive 1v1 action it goes to SC2. =/

28 Dec 2014, 11:35 AM
#360
avatar of __deleted__

Posts: 1225




Some of the things you've just asserted are hilariously untrue though.

Ostheer has no elite infantry? What about Pgrens?

only Sovs/USF can pull light vehicle timing pushes? What about the Kubel? Or more seriously, Puma or Flakhalftrack.

Only one side has useful artillery? What about the Stuka zu Fuss?

Indeed, half of what you've said there is at the root of many faction's balance issues (OKW truck pushing, Why do we need it? It's the height of unrealistic stupidity)

Pgrens are not "elite" conceptually nor factually in game. Obers, Shocks, Paras are elite infantry that can operate independently and defeat every regular inf reliably 1 on 1. Pgrens, at the best of times, are what covers your flank on Semois/Stalingrad.

Kübel is an occassionaly annoying suppression platform that gets hardcountered by....the M3. Or the Dodge. And is usually dead by minute 5. Ever seen a Kübel wipe squads, decide a game, etc?

Puma, Flakhalftrack? Ok, you might make that work. Even though they are both actually more defensive/reactive units.

I see a Stuka in 2s occasionally, usually as a reaction to heavy Soviet t2 play. Problem is that it will delay your Panther too much to be generally viable, but hey, in an AT, your partner might compensate. In 1s, its a very, very rare bird that you cannot afford unless you are hilariously in the lead already. The unit itself is strong, no argument at all, but it has at best a niche in the current meta, so while you have a point there, it frankly was not even on my radar since I dont see it often.
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