ISU-152 Overnerfed

In previous versions such super heavy long ranged units like Elefant, Jagdtiger and ISU were almost standard units for the huge impact on the game they had. The range nerf was a great first step, but they were still extremely strong.

I think this change is great and I'd really urge people to try it for some weeks before posting on the forums. The ISU should be a unit that you sometimes see, not one you see in every game. Considering it takes up almost 1/4 of your armies popcap it required close to no micro in the previous iteration. This is now changed and the requirements are somewhat in line with the value and cost of the unit. Same of course for the Jagdtiger.

It might need some changes to the rotation speed / firing animation etc, that's all possible. Yet in order to figure that out, this change needs to be tested first and directly shouting "UNDO!" does not help. I'd rather have such interesting changes to the mechanics of a unit, that really make them stand out than probably just nerfing it's raw power. If a unit is strong, but only if well microed then this adds a chance for the player to show his skills.

Sorry, but the inability to hit moving targets is simply not a fun change. Reducing the usability of a unit is not the way to balance it. It simply makes the game less fun and overall irritating.


It's very clear that this kind of change will simply make these units never used.

Sorry, but the inability to hit moving targets is simply not a fun change. Reducing the usability of a unit is not the way to balance it. It simply makes the game less fun and overall irritating.


It's very clear that this kind of change will simply make these units never used.

It comes down to the fact that this ISU is nothing like the previous one.
This one needs micro and attention
This one isn't the way to go in 80% of the games
This one isn't better than going for t4 and get su85's or other things
This one isn't the beast it used to be.

The fact that the unit changes and gets a an other role in the game, is in fact also a part of balancing. Its not that easy to use.

Its not always about changing AoE, range or splash, its also about other solutions that reduce the impact of a certain unit.

It comes down to the fact that this ISU is nothing like the previous one.
This one needs micro and attention
This one isn't the way to go in 80% of the games
This one isn't better than going for t4 and get su85's or other things
This one isn't the beast it used to be.

The fact that the unit changes and gets a an other role in the game, is in fact also a part of balancing. Its not that easy to use.

Its not always about changing AoE, range or splash, its also about other solutions that reduce the impact of a certain unit.

So you are okay with this unit to be completely useless?

The jagtiger will now never be able to kill a single sherman, or pretty much any vehicle for that matter.



The ISU-152 will still be able to oneshot squads, but will be completely useless againts vehicles.

I really don't see how these changes are better than just straight up nerfing the AOE on the isu and removing the ability for the jagtiger to shoot through buildings...



And it doesn't need micro and attention. It is simply not possible to hit moving targets.



And overall, this will lead to axis being more OP in teamgames, because the sheer OPness of the isu-152 allowed the allies to fight back in big team games, since all of their other options except ISU-152 are inferior to their axis counterparts, it will be even more terrible.

The sole purpose of the jagtiger was to pretty much to counter the ISU. Your just fine with tigers/panthers/KTs to win.


It's ok though. Eventually relic will realize that this change simply isin't a good idea.

After watching many beta matches 1vs1 and 2vs2,i can say that the ISU 152 is now border useless for its cost.

It was the best weapon soviet faction had... They are now a bear without is best teeth.
Sure there are others options, but now the cmrds with ISU-152 are gimped.
The ISU 152 was already easy to kill with 2 tanks flanking it, now it's a joke.

That was a nice idea, but it's just too much and not fun.

The ISU-152 kill infantry the same way the elephant kill tanks. (from afar, fast and is rather easy to kill if you can flank/reach it.) both are balanced unit that do their job for their cost.

I would revert the Jagdtiger too, but i would make its shooting through wall a munition ability, and make it 10% slower. The Jagdtiger is in it's own class. (tough to kill and powerful)

Thanks.

I'm saddened but not surprised that soviet players are now complaining about the ISU nerf. Personally I see the 2 heavy nerfs to be an improvement to the game. I no longer have to choose the Jagd doctrine when I see an ISU commander in the loading screen. I can actually try new stuff and have fun!

But soviet-only players want their one-shot boss unit back. Sad.

That unit was ruining the game. Yes it was the best weapon the soviets had. It was the best weapon any army had. It was a ridiculous unit. You should be rejoicing that both it and the Jagd have been removed, not complaining that your crutch has gone.

Saying the Soviets are now a bear without its teeth is ridiculous. First of all a bears main weapons are its paws and claws. Second of all the soviet army still has a ton of great units and abilities.

See this as an opportunity to finally try a new commander instead of spamming guards-ISU all day every day.

Somehow, even with the old super OP, always present ISU152, the axis still dominated team game win-rates.

Food for thought for anyone calling the ISU152 a crutch unit or for those who think Soviets have so many other great options in team games.

I'm saddened but not surprised that soviet players are now complaining about the ISU nerf. Personally I see the 2 heavy nerfs to be an improvement to the game. I no longer have to choose the Jagd doctrine when I see an ISU commander in the loading screen. I can actually try new stuff and have fun!

But soviet-only players want their one-shot boss unit back. Sad.

That unit was ruining the game. Yes it was the best weapon the soviets had. It was the best weapon any army had. It was a ridiculous unit. You should be rejoicing that both it and the Jagd have been removed, not complaining that your crutch has gone.

Saying the Soviets are now a bear without its teeth is ridiculous. First of all a bears main weapons are its paws and claws. Second of all the soviet army still has a ton of great units and abilities.

See this as an opportunity to finally try a new commander instead of spamming guards-ISU all day every day.

Sad to see that the Soviets are stuck with near useless non-doctrinal armour, as the Axis currently has their cream of the crop armour #truebalance

Hopefully one day we will get a SU-100 to counter the hordes of Panthers, King Tigers and JT, as the SU-85 can barely stay competitive with a Pz.4,

L2Focused sight. Only SU85/Elefant/ISU has it, so they can spot for themselves. If you keep saying no...then..I dont know what your problem is XDD

It wasn't about that, and focus sight make the ISU or the SU really easy to kill because the are slug when they use it. The moment you know it's using it, the moment it the time to attack it. And if you can't attack it then it's already GG.

Hmm... since an ISU is an assault cannon, how about giving it an absurdly powerful but limited ranged normal attack of about 20 and then a barrage of 70 or so with the same ML-20 that the static arty has...

Isn't KV2 already doing this? I don't say I disagree with what you suggest, but then what is difference between these 2 units?
I like the idea of lowering the AoE, and also the infantry spacing. I think changing the model spacing will improve a lot of insta-wipes, specially for axis.

I use the ISU all the time and I'll be the first to admit it's OP, but it was the only thing keeping the Soviet team win rate artificially high (which is still below Axis rates). Good luck now trying to wipe blob after blob of vet 5 Volks mixed in with Obers.

Infantry squads have paper for armor, that's what is implied in INFANTRY!

^Not a real argument, but whatever.

THe germans have plenty of options for wiping infantry. In fact, the germans have 3 nondoctrinal units to do so. The Brummbar has the exact same AOE value as the ISU, and it has a vet artillery strike. Then there is the Panzerwerfer, which fires 12 rockets at a single position from far range, and is usually either a wipe or heavy damage to any infantry in the area. Finally, there is the Sturmtiger, which can instawipe very large concentrations, shoot through buildings, and even cripple/ instagib vehicles. Germans have plenty of options, they just usually don't bother to use them in most games because they prefer to use Tigers.

EDIT: sorry, forgot to respond to everything: The Stuka can wipe squads with a single rocket, which is not hard to hit because it is deadly accurate.

That's really not much of an argument at all.

The Brumbar sucks against tanks, has 40 range vs ISU's 70 and you need to go T4 to unlock which almost always sets you back on the ressource war.

Panzerwerfer is not a squadwipe machine by any means, it's AoE is fairly large. It's also an artillery piece with a long cooldown, sucks against tank, and comes from T4 too.

Sturmtiger, really? Very short range, incredibly long cooldown during which its a sitting duck, it's little more than a troll unit unless your opponent really sucks and doesn't get out of the way when he sees a giant 308mm mortar pointed at him.

Zu Fuss is a pain in the ass, but you can hear it coming, it's artillery with a long CD, and it sucks against tanks.

Meanwhile, the ISU shoots every 8 seconds or so, and each shot could easily wipe an infantry squad. It has 70 range, the 2nd highest for a non artillery unit, and can spot for itself. It's very good against tank, what little it lack in penetration it makes up for in Crew shock potential. You can't get out of its way when the range can easily cover close to half the map. Shrecks will get obliterated unless your opponent is a noob that never supports his ISU. AT guns get easily decrewed/destroyed by it. The very only way to kill a decently microed ISU if you didn't have a Jagdtiger was to zerg it with heavy tanks and hope you don't it a mine or run into guards in the process.

It was a fucking broken unit that didn't give up anything to be as good as it was. It raped infantry, was very good against tanks, was long ranged, didn't need a spotter, and even had pretty decent durability. The damn thing shouldn't even have been in the game in the first place, having a unit that can easily wipe squads from more than a screen away with almost no effort is terrible design. I am definitely not sorry to see that it now requires a modicum of micro. Far as I'm concerned Relic could have removed the unit (as well as the Jagdtiger) altogether and I would only have cheered.

Good luck now trying to wipe blob after blob of vet 5 Volks mixed in with Obers.

Demo charge

I like the ISU and JT changes.
About the light tank oneshoots. I think a buff to 400 HP for all light tanks would be fair (Pz2 Luchs has 400 already).

i think soviet need isu-122 = JT shoot fire
isu-152 dont change

A quick «counter» vs the ISU152 is a mortar smoke barrage.

A quick «counter» vs the ISU152 is a mortar smoke barrage.

You need to add some additional inverted commas here.

Anyways, the nerf to the ISU is a positive development, not only because the unit itself was wildly overpowered, but also because this offers a welcome detour from a previously stale meta where having a JT in the commander lineup was conditio sine qua non in Axis 2v2.

Infantry against direct fire, heavily armored howitzer? Not really any basis for an argument.

Armour against a direct fire, heavily armoured AT Gun? Not really any basis for an argument.

It wasn't about that, and focus sight make the ISU or the SU really easy to kill because the are slug when they use it. The moment you know it's using it, the moment it the time to attack it. And if you can't attack it then it's already GG.

You know you can instantly turn off focus sight unless you just activated it? You can have it on constantly sniping enemies from max range and turn it off to back away at any sign of danger.

Armour against a direct fire, heavily armoured AT Gun? Not really any basis for an argument.

Psst, you've already said that, you felt into a limbo.

You know you can instantly turn off focus sight unless you just activated it? You can have it on constantly sniping enemies from max range and turn it off to back away at any sign of danger.

uhh ive used the ISU countless numbers of time and you cannot instantly turn ff the focus sight. It may be a bug but once you turn it on, you can't instantly turn it off.

Infantry squads have paper for armor, that's what is implied in INFANTRY!

^Not a real argument, but whatever.

THe germans have plenty of options for wiping infantry. In fact, the germans have 3 nondoctrinal units to do so. The Brummbar has the exact same AOE value as the ISU, and it has a vet artillery strike. Then there is the Panzerwerfer, which fires 12 rockets at a single position from far range, and is usually either a wipe or heavy damage to any infantry in the area. Finally, there is the Sturmtiger, which can instawipe very large concentrations, shoot through buildings, and even cripple/ instagib vehicles. Germans have plenty of options, they just usually don't bother to use them in most games because they prefer to use Tigers.

EDIT: sorry, forgot to respond to everything: The Stuka can wipe squads with a single rocket, which is not hard to hit because it is deadly accurate.

1. The Brummbaer has a smaller aoe value than the isu and it's far more inaccurate, and at least you are able to retreat from this thing instead of getting oneshotted on retreat.

2.The Panzerwerfer is a bad joke if you compare it to the katy, on max range it's just bad and can't hit anything, the ae of it's rockets is very bad too. Gets better on closer ranges though.

3. The Sturmtiger can wipe infantry true, but normally you are able to retreat your squads from it. And it doesn't shoot out of the fog of war and it's hard to hit vehicles with it, it seems you haven't played for a few patches to me.

And the most stuff you are calling here "oneshot" machines are easy avoidable so it's more a ltp issue.

Now, back to the isu, it's not overnerfed, it's very strong vs infantry, even though i would have liked a button for HE and AP more than this micro intensive unit. Against any fast moving target it's rather bad.